Amazing LifeHack – Dual Sim and MicroSD card working Same time (simultaneously)


Amazing Life-hack – Dual Sim and Micro SD card Working simultaneously For This You need A SIM , SD card, Gas Lighter, Super Glue, Forceps Cut The sim card If you have a micro sim or nano sim you don’t need to cut it Marking on the sim for the direction I need to glued the sim. If you do it wrong. It will not work Burn the sim card for 1 – 2 second with gas lighter Don’t over burn it might fry the SIM card chip. Remove the plastic with forceps SIM chip successfully removed. Glued the SIM chip with SD card. Remember the direction of the sim card. Its time to check the sim card if it is working or not Follow this diagram Glued the sim with the SD card as shown in the picture Glued the SIM chip wrong way sim card will not detect by the phone. You can use super glue. But you will not able to remove the SIM chip without breaking the SD card and SIM Use some alligator clip to hold the sim tight So there will be less space between SD card and SIM CHIP and it will help you insert it easily inside the phone You can use super glue but I don’t recommend it. Check the SIM Chip. How good it is glued with SD card DISCLAIMER: DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK, WE SHALL NOT RESPONSIBLE ON YOUR LOST OF YOUR PHONE or YOUR NANO SIM CARD or INJURY I am using using XIAOMI redmi 3 phone I will works it any other phone too Push the sim tray genteelly Both SIM card working With SD card Thanks for watching Like Subscribe

Mindfulness at Work by Optimistic Brain


Hi there can we talk about mindfulness? Mindfulness is all about paying attention to what our mind is doing… and what is happening around us, in the present moment. As you go around your day and catch yourself reliving a past experience… or worrying about some future event… you can simply and gently guide your attention back to what’s happening in front of you. Anyone can learn how to be mindful and a common way to practice is to MEDITATE. Contrary to popular belief meditating is NOT about zoning out! Meditation practice is an exercise whereby you choose something to focus on… your breath for example and practice keeping your attention there. When you notice that your mind is wandering off, then you can gently guide it back to your breath. There are many types of mindfulness practices. You can meditate and practice paying attention to your emotions or body sensations for example. You can also practice being mindful just
by focusing on being present when you do an activity, like going for a walk… or doing a chore around the house… or when you talk with someone. Mindfulness practices have been around for a long time. Recently, mindfulness has become quite popular. Time magazine did a cover story about mindfulness. 60 minutes even did a story about it. Companies such as Google, Facebook, Apple, LinkedIn… all are teaching their employees… how to become more mindful. Why are companies and spending all this time and money… to teach their employees
about mindfulness? Well, the more mindful you are… the more empathetic you are
towards your customers… and being empathetic allows you to understand how your customers are feeling… and more importantly why they feel that way. It’s this understanding that allows you to meet their needs. When you are more mindful your listening and your communication skills improve. Mindfulness also allows you to work better together in teams. You become more creative. All of that is really beneficial for any company. There’s lots of personal benefits to becoming more mindful as well. It gives you more insight and understanding not only of yourself and of others. It allows you to be more present and enjoy the good that is around you. It allows you to become more resilient so that when things happen that are not the greatest, you can easily bounce back to your normal self. You’ll find that your focus and concentration improves the more you practice. All-in-all you become more productive. You become happier… and your stress levels are reduced. If you or your organization is interested in rolling out a mindful strategy of your own, keep in mind that part of any mindfulness initiative is to give your employees, the tools and resources so that they can become more familiar with mindfulness and mindfulness practices. There’s a number of things you can do… to initiate your mindfulness strategy. Perhaps you’d like to schedule some mindfulness classes… or organize some regular meditation sits… or launch a discussion forum. So come on and join the mindfulness movement that’s sweeping the world. You will be amazed at all the benefits you get when you become more mindful. This video was produced by OptimisticBrain.com For more information you can always check out our website. Join our Facebook group!

It Doesn’t Have to be Crazy at Work with Jason Fried


– Hey, everybody, what’s up? It’s Chase. Welcome to another episode of the show, that’s right, the Chase Jarvis Live Show here on Creative Live. I hope you know the show by now. This is where I sit
down with amazing humans and I do everything I can
to unpack their brains, with the goal of helping
you live your dreams and career and hobby and in life. My goal today is to introduce you to a super fine human, Jason Fried. You’ll know him as the
co-founder and CEO of Basecamp, which is an amazing piece of software that my photo studio has
used for a long time, for more than a decade. He’s also the bestselling author of, now I think, three books. Two I’ve read before, Remote and Rework. Rework really jogged my brain in a way that was super refreshing,
and I’m very excited to have him on the show today to talk about his new book, It Does Not Have to Be Crazy at Work. My guest is, again, Mr. Jason Fried. – Hey, how are ya? – What’s up? (rock music) (applause) – They love you. – Yes. I’ve had the good fortune of sitting down with your business partner, David Heinemeier Hansson. – He’s fun to sit down with isn’t he? – Yeah, he’s a good guy, he’s fiery, and we have a lot of mutual friends. I’ve been looking forward to this day for a long time. So welcome. – You, too. Thank you for having me here. – Yeah, congrats on the book. – Thank you. We’re proud of it. – I love it. I think I saw some early designs or David was talking about it as you guys were, and like
this is just brilliant. – We’re happy with how that turned out. The idea was like, we wanted
the cover to say it all. What’s the book about, just look at the cover and you’ll know. And that’s kind of the idea. And our names are on the cover, too. – I did notice that. – Hard thing to kind of get
done with the publishers because they don’t really, it’s an usual thing for them.
– Yeah. They’re uncomfortable with that idea. – Well speaking of
unusual and uncomfortable and not like what everybody else does, it seems to me, having
followed you for now, probably close to 15 years, that is part of your m o. You do things differently, you do it to the beat of your own drum. I say, to our audience here on the show, and professionally, personally even, you can’t stand out and fit in at the same time. So you might as well do your own thing. – Yeah. – How has that been a mantra for you because you’ve been doing it, like Rework was a
completely new thing for me. The idea of not crushing yourself at work is completely new, especially antithetical to our culture. – Is this a vein in your life? Are you a contrarian? – Probably, I guess technically. But I don’t really set out to be. I just kind of do what
I think makes sense. Maybe my version of what makes sense is different than what
other people’s version of what makes sense is. – Fair. – I also don’t pay attention to a lot of things. I think that’s another part of it. I think sometimes people
are paying attentions to too many things and they become so
informed by everything else that you just think that’s the only way to do things. So by being sort of, willfully ignorant, most of the time, you know, I can kind of, I guess,
skip the influences that I probably don’t want. I also stay away from, for example, in our industry, we’re
in the software business, everyone is here in Silicon Valley, for the most part, where in Chicago which helps is, just stay away from that world, I think if I was out
here it would be easier to be lured into it or sucked into it. And I kind of try to stay away. So I think I have a lot
of defense mechanisms that I’m not consciously aware of but I think they help me stay fresh and original, hopefully. – Yeah, they have clearly, have helped you stand out. Let’s go back if we can, just a second to, some of the previous books
that I just mentioned. The first one was Rework, right? Rework came out, actually
you did one before that. – We did one called Getting Real. Which is a self published book. – But Reword was our biggest,
first publishing book. – I have it, it’s got, this one again, you guys were kind enough
to send this to me, it’s dog haired like crazy already. But Rework looks like a tattered, a gift that you give to a puppy and it just shreds it because I had really
just consumed it a lot. But to me, that was the
first expose I’d had to your alls writing
rather than on the blog. And again, not, it never felt like it was contrarian as the objective,
the end goal being to say something that was different than everyone else. But how you, or how have
you programmed your body, your mind, your company, your ethos to think differently? – You know, I think a
big part of it for us is, again, like what actually makes sense. So our company is relatively small in our industry. 55 people in the company. We could have many more,
we don’t want many more. We want a smaller company. Which is again, different than most people in the industry. They want to grow, grow, grow. And it not that we want to be small because they’re big. It’s we want to be small because small works for us. For the people we have,
the kind of culture we want and for David and I running the business we don’t wanna deal
with a bunch of people. I mean it’s just hard enough
to get everything right with 55 so it’s not like
we’re trying to be different. We’re just trying to be what works for us. And I think that we have a, our company, and perhaps David and
I are pretty self aware about what we want and what we don’t want. We’re very clear about what we don’t want. In fact we’re more focused
on what we don’t want than what we want. It’s like whatever’s left
over is actually what we want. We’re very careful about that. – Don’t want any of these
things, hey I’ll take this. – Yes, basically. So size is important to us. Not raising money is a big part of that. So like, we’re a boot strap company and because of that we’re able to do a lot of things that you can’t do that if you raise money. Like, we can leave money on the table. We can say no to customers. We can stay small. We cannot have to grow or follow the hockey
stick pattern, you know. We can just do whatever
we want essentially. And we’re truly independent and I think that we value that more than almost anything else. – And how is that, does this come from your childhood? Cause it’s different than most. And it’s also different
than what’s celebrated which is one of the reasons
you’re an amazing guest, an amazing person to follow. But it doesn’t seem like this is, the path that you are on doesn’t seem like the natural path. To me you feel like the exception rather than the rule, again, which is brilliant. But how–
Where I come from. Was it something your
parents instilled in you? Were you always, can you trace it back? – I can probably think about it, yeah. So I’m an only child, I don’t know if that has anything to do with it, but I am that. – We have that in common. – Oh, alright. Very good. – There’s not too many of us. – I’ve always sort of just kind of done my own thing, you know, without the influence of a
brother or sister basically. I that’s part of it. My Dad always told me, just
never work for anybody. That was like his thing,
he always just told me never work for anybody. He also said never have
a partner in a business, which I do have. But, which has worked out great but he told me not to have a partner. My grandfather was an entrepreneur, he opened a grocery store business, it turned into something. Maybe it’s in my blood a little bit to sort of doing things my own way. But I think I also, I
worked in some companies when I was growing up that I think, even though I didn’t
realize it at the time, really informed me. Some small businesses that I thought the owner wasn’t nice
but the manager was nice. I always flourished in environments where I was trusted. And kind of didn’t give a shit when people didn’t trust me. I just did not care about them or their business at all. So trust had a lot to do with that. So I think it’s a lot of
these series of sort of, moments that really colored my outlook, although I didn’t realize
it when I was growing up– – Of course, you can only connect the dots looking backwards. – Looking backwards right? So I think that if I have
to connect those dots it’s probably a series of events, plus being an only child, plus my parents being
very supportive of me and giving me a lot of room to roam and make a lot of mistakes and get in a lot of trouble when I was younger, and learn from that and realize that independence and doing
what you want is good but there are limits too
and you can get yourself into real trouble, so
you gotta like really understand what those limits are, and then you can flourish
within that space. And not to just do what
everyone else does. And I think, I saw this with my dad, too. My dad worked for someone for awhile and just was miserable all the time. And then went off to work on his own. I shouldn’t say he was
miserable all the time but he talked a lot about his boss and he didn’t like the
work and the whole thing. And then he went off on his own and he was a lot happier. I think I saw that,
too, I saw that happen. So it’s probably these things altogether. I also, I just never
really was good at school. I was kind of doing other things. I had little businesses on the side. I would always just tinker
and figure stuff out for myself and found out that I can do what I wanted,
I could figure it out and make it work. – There’s a handful of,
you just did a nice job of mapping that out. So there are a handful
of those things that are every bit, that you
wear on your sleeve today, you guys, again, the pop
culture movement right now is hustle and if you’re not
doing 80 hours a week you’re not enough. I’m really interested I think
in, culture of being enough. Like right now, today, you’re worthy just because you’re here. Inspirations from folks like Brene Brown and others who talk
about that we don’t have to perform all these amazing tasks to be somehow worthy. It doesn’t have to be crazy at work to me is, it’s almost like a manifesto, anti-manifest to the pop culture train. But this is the obvious question coming at you here nice and slow, right down the middle of the pipe. But why don’t you want me to work hard? What if I want to work hard and surely I can, you know if I’m compelled to work hard constraining how hard I’m going to work is probably a bad thing
because then I’m not going to feel the joy and I’m gonna be slower, it’s gonna take me longer to get to quote 10,000 hours, I’m just
throwing all of this shit you’ve heard said about your books and your philosophy, in
the past in one question. Why are you hatein on
the hustlers? (laughing) – Well here’s the thing, right? I’ll hit this from a variety of angles. First of all, to me hard work and hours are not the same thing, right? So people say like, work hard, I can work hard in forty hours. Which I work basically forty hour weeks. I can hard for forty hours. I don’t need to work 80 to work hard. In fact, I think a lot of times people are spending a lot of times on things that don’t matter. Or a lot of time on
things that don’t matter. So they’re hustling and they’re busy but if they cut out a lot of the shit that they’re doing, they’d probably be getting
just as much stuff done and actually be able to go home and rest and get some perspective. This is the thing that I think is missing. When you work 80 hour weeks, which is you know is 10-12
hours a day essentially, it has to be more than 10
if it’s seven days a week. But let’s call it 12, whatever, people work on the weekends,
whatever it is, right? You know, you lack perspective because if you’re always in it you can’t get out of it and you’ve gotta get out of it to see and to think and have your brain come up with different ideas that you couldn’t come up with if you’re looking at the work itself. You need space, you need perspective, you need a different point of view, you need different
experiences, I think at least. And I think that these
things benefit people. And if you wanna be
really good at what you do I think that getting away from it is actually the way to get better at it. Cause then when you come back to it renewed, refreshed, with a new perspective versus being heads down all the time. I don’t know if you’ve ever worked on something creatively, or like, 10 hours in you’re no good anymore. You’re like, I can’t,
I’m cashed, I gotta go. And you go back, you get some sleep, hopefully the next morning
you have a new idea that you didn’t have. You could not have brute
force had that idea no matter how many hours you put in a row. You gotta get space. I think space is really valuable. – So what if you keep going? – The other thing I was
going to say about that, too, is that, the thing I hear sometimes is people say, what
about if you’re starting a brand new business, you need
to put more hours into it. Maybe there’s some truth to that but you gotta be careful
because the things you do are the habits you form. And you cannot not form habits basically. You’re gonna form em, right? If you’re– – We’re habit machines,
humans, we’re habit machines. – Exactly, and if we’re,
you’re working 100 hour weeks or 80 hour weeks or 70 or whatever it is when you’re getting started and you think that this
is the way you do it, this what you’re gonna keep doing. At some point, you’re not gonna be
able to do that anymore. Maybe when you’re 21 you can do that cause you have nothing
else going on in your life. But at some point probably have a family or not have a family or
whatever you’re gonna do but you’re gonna want to do other things, you’re gonna have other pursuits in life. And you’re not gonna get a chance to experience those things if you’re just busting your ass constantly cause you think that’s all you can do. If I don’t work 80, I can’t make it. And that’s just not fair
and it’s also not true. Because there’s a lot of people who work really, really
long, who don’t make it. So it’s not about the hours. It’s about what you do, a ton about it is about luck, you know
we have to all admit luck is a huge part of this, huge. – For sure. Not to mention
where you were born, what time, what gender, what race. – All of it. – What social economic
status you were born into, all those matter, probably more than work. – I think more than pretty much all of it. I was fortunate, I was born in 1974. So I went to college from 1992 through 96. And about 1995 the internet
became a thing, kind of. Before that it was a text based thing. – Yeah I remember I had an
email address at that time. No one else did. – Right, exactly. In the mid 90s it became
like this graphical thing where you could go to a web browser and look at websites. And I was fortunate to
come around or come up at that time when no one
knew what they were doing, cause it was brand new and I got to learn alongside everybody else. No one had an advantage. And I learned in the beginning and so I’ve had a lot of time doing it. I’ve gotten good at it. If I was starting today I wouldn’t, there’s no chance I would be able to do what I’ve done, including our own business. If our business went out of business today and I started another one tomorrow, I don’t think I’d be anywhere
as near as successful, ever, as what we’ve done with Basecamp just because we’ve been
doing it for a long time. We were at the right
place at the right time. Luck was there, we were good at it, but you need more than that, too. And so anyway, I just don’t think you can brute force some of this stuff. – I think it’s brilliant. And in a way, you’ve
probably heard the adage of like, constraints drive creativity. – THere’s that, too. – And if you just apply that same concept of constraints to time
that you’re gonna work on something, it’s like hey I wanna work a reasonable schedule. I do notice that it
forces me, for example, on the weekend or when I’m traveling, and I have to do something, what’s the, I forget the law, is it Pareto’s Law, whenever that something
expands to the time– – Parkinson’s Law,
that’s what it’s called, work expands to fill the time available, which is so true. – It’s so true. So by
setting some constraints I think, that’s what you’re
really getting at, right? It’s like those are
constraints that you’ve said I wanna place under, over my company on my particular day. Do you feel like, there’s
a beautiful little line in the book, fear of missing out, and what I hear often
and especially this town, we’re talking from San Francisco, I just came from downtown, all the start ups are all over the place. My home is right in
between Twitter and Uber and it’s like you can’t escape it. And there’s literally always something in the tech, entrepreneur
scene happening tonight. You feel like you’re
missing out cause you’re clocking 40 hours and– – No, I feel like I’m, what’s the opposite of missing out? Rich with– – Rich with, you have everything you– – I think of other things to do. I can do other things. I have no desire to
spend all my waking hours in one thing. I have hobbies, I have things I wanna do or I just wanna sit and do nothing. And not feel like I need
to be doing something or showing up to something because other people are there. I’ve never, ever had that. That’s never been a part of my thing which is like, I need to be there, cause they’re there, or this is where you’re supposed to be. It’s just not a thing for me. And in fact it drains me to have to be somewhere because
you’re supposed to be. I don’t like that. – So in the book, just give the away here, is they call it JOMO,
the joy of missing out. – The joy of missing out. – Yeah, joy of missing out. And that’s something we believe in at work which is that, and that’s kind of why it’s in the book, which is that, a lot of people today
and a lot of businesses feel like they have to follow everything that’s happening inside
of our organization. So they’ve got chat rooms open, they’re following a dozen
real time conversations all day long, cause if
they miss that one thing that’s going on, they’re
gonna miss something they think is important. Very few things that are
actually important happen at any given day. Most of it is just work, it’s boring, I mean not like boring, like you hate it, but just, it’s standard work. And that’s what kind of work mostly is. We don’t need to turn work
into a 24 hour news ticker. Where you’re following
breaking stories at work all the time, right? There aren’t breaking stories at work and there shouldn’t be, right? – How did we get there? – Technology, ruined it for us, I think. I truly believe that. I think the advent of
real time communications, real time chat primarily, at work, has caused more
problems than it’s solved. And there’s some good things about real time communication but I think it’s made it too easy to follow too many
things at the same time. And it sped up everything. Where you can’t not think
about something anymore. Because everything’s on a conveyor belt and the conveyor belt is constrained by the screen you have. And once the conversation
scrolls off the screen like it’s over. And so if you didn’t get your word in, – There’s a conveyor belt. – There’s a conveyor belt. it’s actually become, in a way we’ve become factory workers again in a sense because
in a conveyor belt in a factory setting
like the thing slides by, you’re at your station, you’ve gotta put your thing on there before it goes by or you miss it. And that’s what happened at work now with communication, is that communication is literally scrolling by, one line at a time, and if you’re not there when that thing is being discussed, you don’t get your word in, it’s over. You can’t put that word in two hours later because that’s like, two
hours later, you know, 14 feet up in the sky and you know on the conveyor belt right? So now people are forced to pay attention to everything all the time. And if you’re paying
attention to everything all the time when do you
have time to do your work? You don’t, basically. So we’re very careful
about that at Basecamp, we don’t make decisions in real time, we make decisions in slow time. We’re a synchronous primarily. We use chat and stuff and Basecamp has it built in, but we have primarily we post long form messages in Basecamp, like a
traditional message forum. Like old school, like
message board basically. And that basically says, here’s my idea, not one line at a time, but one thought at a time. I want you to read it, and you can tell I’ve put time into it. So I want you to take the time and think about it and get back to me tomorrow or the next day. It’s fine, there’s no rush. If it takes a few days
to discuss something, that’s fine, versus
trying to rush everything so we’re discussing it in 15 minutes. There’s like, no reason, why is everyone rushing all the time. I don’t get it, there’s no reason for it. – It’s so powerful. I think the fear of missing
out, I think in part, is you’ve crafted a really nice response that most of that stuff is just noise. And what do you say to
the person who’s listening or watching right now who’s saying, yeah but industry is moving quickly and my boss expects me, it’s really nice to be able to listen to you talk about this great
company that you built, but I got a boss and I
got a team and I’ve got all these things, none of which conform or
allow me to try and experiment with this great idea you’ve come up with, which means it doesn’t
have to be crazy at work. But that’s your work, right? So what about my work? – So I will grant people this, that’s it’s very difficult obviously to be able to do some of these things if you don’t have the power to implement some of these things. Some of these ideas, in the book, are for the business owner, who’s open minded and going maybe this isn’t the healthy situation I’m creating for my people, maybe I’m not creating
the best environment for them to do their best work, I expect their best work out of them, well if the environment isn’t great, then how are they gonna give that to me? So maybe some people at the top are gonna see this and go, okay there’s something I can do. Sometime you’re in the middle and you might manage a team and there’s some stuff there you can do with a team perhaps, right? And there’s other times where you really don’t have a lot of power except you’re own local space, you, maybe it is you and one other person but maybe it’s just you. And at that point I
will grant you the fact that some of these, you can’t probably go up to your boss and go, if he expects you to work 80, or she expects you to work 80, you can’t go, I’m gonna work 40. That’s just not gonna probably work, that’s probably not the right job for you and you don’t have, you have to figure out
what are you in control of and what are you not in control of. Which is really important
in life in general. What do you have control over, what don’t you have control over. And the things you have control over you can maybe change, and it might be that it’s just you. That you have control
of your own atmosphere, your own little space,
and then if don’t want other people to constantly
interrupt you all day maybe you shouldn’t be
interrupting them all day and perhaps you know,
you must be the change you wish to see in the world, that Gandhi quote or whoever said it. Which is like, if you
don’t like what’s going on at work and some of these
things might pertain to you and you wish people
weren’t interrupting you and you wish people weren’t pushing you and wish people weren’t calling you into more meetings and whatnot then maybe you shouldn’t do those things. And you can begin to effect, a little bit, maybe one other person going, you know what, that’s cool
that Chase hasn’t bugged me for awhile, like he used
to ask me all the time, now he’s finding out a
question, or getting answers for himself, maybe I
won’t bother him as much or interrupt him as much. And so you kind of have
some minor influence there and that’s the best you can do. But I think it’s unreasonable if your boss or the owner, or your manager
is out of their minds, like you’re not going
to be able to move them. But there are things you can do. I’ll give you another example, like something we often
encourage people to do, they wanna work at home, it might be hard to say
I want to work at home, flat out, you’re not
gonna get a yes there. But maybe you could say,
can you give me a shot to work one day a month at home? Can I try that at the very least? There’s a good chance
if you have a reasonable manager or boss to let you do that. And if you do that and you
show them that the world isn’t ending and that the
business isn’t falling apart and you’re getting your work done they’re gonna be like, okay,
maybe I’ll give you two days. Maybe you can start to
build up some successes. And it just takes a couple
small steps like that to finally build some leverage. Cause you don’t have any
leverage if you’re brand new and you don’t have any power. You don’t have any leverage, right? So you gotta build a
little bit here and there and then eventually you can find the equilibrium, what is the
balance that’s reasonable for you and your business
given the constraints that you’re under. – You mentioned trust
earlier and I think there’s a big part of trust
between a relationship, a company, an employer,
an employee, a boss, and a team mate is, do you in particular do anything to foster that at Basecamp. – Yeah. – How do you grow trust
if you’re largely remote largely asynchronous, you know, I’m trying to understand, cause right
now there are people out there like, I want everything
that Jason has, I want to not have 80 hour weeks
and packed schedules and I don’t want to be super busy and have overflowing
inboxes and all this stuff but I’m trying to get to practicality, like yeah man, you’re just talking about this utopia. – Let’s get practical. I mean we are talking about our business in this book, there are out things. But they didn’t start this way. We kind of figured out works for us and what doesn’t work for us. And there’s other things in here, like why doesn’t it say 30 weeks. We work 40, cause 40
is about right for us. Maybe for someone else it’s 45. I’m not so strict in that,
40 is a round, rough number, that’s the idea right? The trust thing is important
because first of all, it comes from a place of
laziness, to be honest. I don’t want to be looking
over everybody’s work cause I’m a little bit lazy. I don’t want to have to do that. I want to trust people to do great work. And also I don’t want to
have to do everybody’s work. I think sometimes when
you’re on top of everybody you’re actually ending
up doing everybody’s work for them, and I’m like, I don’t wanna do that, first of all. David doesn’t wanna do that. Second, you hire great people if you want to get great things out of them you gotta give them room to do their work. First of all, they’re
not gonna stick around if you’re on top of them all the time. They’re not gonna do great work if you’re looking over their shoulder all the time, who does, nobody does. So you gotta give people space and room and autonomy and trust and I think that’s the only way to really, in my opinion, it’s the way to get
the best out of people. And it’s the only way to actually build an origination that
surprises you constantly, which is what I want. I wanna be surprised. A lot of business owners don’t. They wanna know everything that’s going on and they want everything to be just right. I don’t care for that. I mean, I don’t surprised on the down side too often, but it’s okay to be surprised on the down side occasionally. I wanna be surprised on the up side because people are doing things, they have room to
explore, they’re creative, and they come up with something that we wouldn’t have come
up with out of ourselves. I love that potential, and the only way you get to that is by giving people space and stepping back, and letting them do great work on their own. Now how can this happen? – Yeah let’s go tactical. Actually I’m gonna interject one thing before we get to the how. Because we have a mutual
friend, Toby, from Shopify. Brilliant guy. He and Harley, love,
love, love those guys. – Great business. – Great business, Shopify. Probably a lot of Shopify
users listening and watching, like Basecamp. The reason I’m bringing it up it because you reference it in the book, Toby developed a thing
called the trust battery. Which is basically, well
I’ll let you explain it. – It’s great. That was something that really, when we hear that, it
made so much sense to us. We kind of had thought about, we kind of had the principles in mind, but we’ve never had a name for it. And sometimes you need
a name for something to really have it sink in. – Yeah, words matter to humans. – They totally do. And you gotta label it
so you can talk about it. So the trust battery,
the concept is I think, at Shopify, the way he describes it is, everybody who’s hired comes
in at trust battery 50% basically, which is, we mostly trust you, you’re probably gonna be good. But you gotta earn some more and you can also lose some. And so if you want more
autonomy, more responsibility, and more flexibility, you need to build up the trust battery. And that’s done through
personal relationships, it’s done through examples
of doing good work, it’s doing the right thing over and over and you just build up
your battery with people. The key though, is that the battery, by the way, there’s not
actual measure of the battery, it’s a mental thing, it’s like, you just have a sense of what your battery is with somebody and
batteries are independent and relative. So if we work together
we would have a battery between us, or actually
I would have a battery about you and you’ve
have a battery about me. But your battery might be different with somebody else in the organization. Which is why sometimes two
people aren’t getting along and you can’t understand why, you’re like, they’re great people,
why can’t they get along, and the problem is that, their battery between each other is low for some reason. They had a run in, someone
said they were gonna do something and they didn’t, someone didn’t deliver
on what their promise, whatever it was and so
their battery is low. It’s a great lens to look
at personal relationships inside a business and try to understand why some things work, some things don’t, when you can’t possibly understand why. It’s because everyone has
their own relative battery. That’s something that
we thought about a lot and we basically assume
that people come in at about 50% as well. And if people’s battery’s
low with somebody you have to kind of figure out why and what’s going on, you gotta figure out to build that up. Because if you and I
have a good relationship it doesn’t effect someone
else who has a bad one. They need to have a good one with the other person. You kind of have to recognize that it can only be repaired
directly with individuals. You might facilitate some stuff with them or put them on projects together or not put them on projects together if they’re rubbing the wrong way. And figure out other ways to have some good experiences between them so they can build their
battery back up again so they can trust each other again. It’s such a great, I
mean Toby nailed that. It’s really good and
when you begin to look at it that way a lot of
things that didn’t make sense in the organization begin to make sense. You go, of course they have
low battery between them and then you figure out, how do we fix it. – Trust battery. – Trust battery. – Brilliant – It’s great. – Presumably you’ve thought a lot about how you want your company
structured and run and we’ve talked how trust
is a really important aspect. What else, what are some
other really key things that you look for, that
you’ve built into you company, some of the ones that are
maybe more important to you. How do you think about it? – Well a lot it is the
things we don’t want. – That’s a great way of filtering. – That’s how we think about it primarily. We want to remain independent,
fully, completely, independent which means that we don’t want to raise outside money. We don’t want to have
a board of directors. So we haven’t raised outside
money for the business. Full disclosure, we took some
money from Jeff Bezos in 2006 but that wasn’t for the business. Jeff bought a small piece of my ownership and David’s ownership so that money went to David and I not to the business. We’ve always been 100% funded by customers and always will be. We don’t have any outside
influence on the business. We don’t have a board of directors. And those two things right there have a huge impact on
the things we can do. We don’t wanna sit in meetings all day. So we don’t have a meetings heavy culture which means that we write
a lot of things down versus say them out loud. We write long form and
write in detailed passages so people can absorb
everything on their own time versus having a meeting where you have to pull people off their work to sit in a room together
to talk about something that has nothing to do with right now but you’re having the meeting right now. It’s a very inefficient,
actually very inefficient way of doing it. To do that, to facilitate that we have to hire great writers. We don’t hire people who can’t write. Very, very, very important. It’s actually, probably the
number one hiring criteria after like can they do the work. Are they good at the thing? But the next thing is, can they write? And if they can’t write,
well, we will not hire them. – So do you do a test, a
written communication test? – They do the test for us, essentially by submitting cover letters. We look at the cover letter first. We don’t look at the
resume, don’t care about previous experience,
don’t care about where they went to school. Don’t care about any of that stuff. We look at the cover letter and if they don’t have one, resume gets tossed. They have to be able to write to us saying why they want this job, who they are, what’s important to them, why is it this job and not just any job. Or if it is any job just say that too. But I wanna be able to read it. And you read the letter and you quickly can tell this person can write, this person can communicate, they can express themselves,
they’re clear minded, they’re thoughtful,
they’re good at nuance, or good at the subtleties that matter, that separate them from somebody else, they know how to persuade. And persuasion is super important
in any line of business. Because you gotta sell, not
like sell to a customer always, but sell and idea
internally, to your team, whatever it is right? So the cover letter is fundamental for us. We’re very, very careful about that. So that’s the writing
test, it’s not a test, but it is, ya know what I mean? Have to hire good
writers so that we can do some of the other things that we can do. If you weren’t a good
writer you couldn’t work at our company and we’d
have to have more meeting and that’s not what we want to do. We don’t want to have a
lot of distance between ownership and a product, our ownership and the customers. We have a small company
because if we had a big company we’d have to have multiple
layers of management. And we don’t want to have
multiple layers of management cause things are always
lost in translation as you go and we just don’t want that. So we don’t do that. A lot of it is driven by
what we don’t want to do. We don’t want to have, like for awhile, we had four different products and to have four different products and maintain them at a high level we’d have to have more people and we’d have to work longer hours, we didn’t want to do that. So we said, let’s not have those anymore, let’s spin those off or kind of wind them down and let’s
focus just on Basecamp. And so we didn’t do what
we were doing before and we decided not to do that anymore. There’s a whole bunch of the don’ts. And the don’ts, again whatever is left, is what we do basically. At the end of the day it’s about, when you’re an entrepreneur
you’re building a company of course,
but you’re also building your own job and it’s a
selfish way of looking at it but I’m comfortable with that right now. Which is basically, where do I want to go work everyday. I want to do this job
maybe for 23, 30, 40 years, I don’t know, we’ve done it for 20. Hopefully we can do it for a lot longer. – Still having fun? – Still having fun, loving
the work, loving the people, it’s great. So I wanna keep doing this. So I wanna build the best
place for me to work, selfishly, and I’m
hoping that my judgements is what other people would
want out of a business as well. So you end just finding
like minds who want to work in a place like you wanna work. Similarly we built Basecamp for ourselves, the product for ourselves and just find customers who are like us or wanna be like us versus trying to convince people, who don’t understand what we’re doing, to understand what we’re doing. I’m not interested in
convincing anybody of anything. I’m interested in putting
something out there that we think is great,
that works well for us, that we explain well
hopefully, and clearly enough, and show the benefits of,
and if you want in great, if not, that’s cool too. Another thing I’ll say about a don’t, is, this comes down to our pricing
model for our products. Almost everybody in the
industry charges by the seat. So they charge per person, we don’t. – Bigger company, bigger bill. – Right, so $100 bucks a
person, a year, 10,000 people, big numbers, right? Well that has a material
effect on the business not just of course on the revenue, which it can beneficial for revenue, but what ends up happening is is that you end up just working for the people who pay you the most. And then you end up having customers you can’t afford to lose. Those are your worst customers, ya know? Nobody can pay us basically
more than $99 a month for Basecamp. I don’t care if you have
10,000 people or 3 people the price is the exact same. It’s $99 bucks, flat period,
no per person charges. And that forces us not to
do what we don’t wanna do. We don’t want to have to service a few high paying customers cause we don’t wanna have to lose those customers. So you end up taking good care of them and then you end up becoming
a consulting business and I don’t wanna do that. We make sure that nobody,
we make sure basically that we can afford to lose any customer. And in fact we could afford to lose, let’s call it 25% of our customers, any 25% at any time and we’d be okay. You couldn’t do that
if some paid you a lot and some paid you a little cause if it was the wrong ones you’d be– – Yeah the wrong 25%, you’d be screwed So I’m a big fan of business
that looks like static. Which is basically if you think about an old TV static, all
the dots are basically the same size and they’re random. I think that’s a good business versus a business where you
have a couple of big circles and a bunch of small dots, cause those big circles
is what the business is really about and then you’re just servicing a few customers. By not doing that we can afford to do a bunch of other things
that we want to do. It’s these collections of
don’ts that give us the dos. – That’s beautiful, it’s a great lens. I think a really, easy, simple, logical follow up question now. How do you decide those
things, cause there’s some it seems like you’d have
to have this inner compass and you strike me, again
from what I’ve known from all of our mutual
friends, and what I’ve read, these things are, they’re
self evident to you. They’re obvious, they’re
intuitive, they’re, and maybe I’m putting some
words into your mouth, but from where I’m sitting
and I’m trying to put myself in the shoes, and the ears and the eyes of the people who are actively listening, gosh he knows exactly what he wants and it’s actually easy to build something if you know what you want but I’m a 23 year old designer who just went out on my own, I’m a freelancer, and how did you develop your internal compass, your point of view, your style of work? – Over time, it’s modified, it’s changed. – That’s the first like,
pressure valve right there. You don’t have to know
everything immediately. – Hell no, Hell no. A lot of the stuff in
the book we figured out over the last five years. Because we’ve been trying
and trying and trying stuff and some things work
and some things don’t. So of course, when you’re
right out of school or brand new or whatever,
if you didn’t go to school, it doesn’t matter, whatever it is, like anything you’re brand new at it. You’ve gotta practice to get good at it. No one would expect you step on stage if you were, the first time
you ever played guitar, and like play. No one would expect that to be true. But people have that
expectation of themselves when they start a business, that they’ve gotta have
it all figured out. But you’re on stage for the first time, like you would be with a guitar, you’re not gonna be any good. So you’ve gotta figure this out, the key though, I think, is that you’ll benefit yourself by going slowly. And a lot of people in business today think you need to go really fast. When you go really fast
you skip over lessons and you don’t learn them
until it’s too late. Because we kept our business
small for a long time, we’ve always been as
small as we possibly can, we just grew within our means, we never got ahead of ourselves, we learned the lessons and we figured out what we were good at and
what we weren’t good at. Think about if you had a buffet of food and you just tried to taste
everything really fast you wouldn’t really know what you liked and what you didn’t cause all the flavors would blend together, it
wouldn’t be pleasurable. But if you had a week
to sample all the food, like slowly, you’d go, I
like that, I like that, I like that, I like that. I don’t like that, I don’t like that, when you move slowly you give yourself a chance to think it over. And to feel it and really know what it is and to absorb it. It’s the same way, another food analogy, if you eat really fast,
you don’t know you’re full until it’s too late. If you eat slowly you don’t
eat as much cause you feel it. Your body takes some time to
adjust to what you’re eating and I think the same
thing is true in business. So for us it’s been a
matter of moving slowly, questioning what we’re doing, reflecting on what we’re doing, we reflect a lot, was that worth it, did that make sense, was this
what we want to do again, do we want to do this same thing again? And another thing I
always use a little like, a little trick perhaps, whenever I make a decisions, I go, will I be happy with this in a year? And I don’t know, but I think about that, I go, I know I’m making it about now, but will I regret this decision? And I’m not always right about it but I’ve gotten better
at honing that instinct. So that’s another
framework that I use a lot. Why not be happy about this,
it’s really easy to make short term decisions that
you think for right now, but you’re stuck with a
lot of these decisions and you don’t want to regret these things. I don’t wanna pile up regrets as I go. Or pile up things that
I wish I hadn’t done, I don’t wanna do that. So I just think moving
slowly is the way to do it. But it’s hard for people because the expectation, to get back to your point, society and the entrepreneurial
community, whatever, is all about speed. – Gary Vaynorchuck wants
you to go real fast. – Gary, right. – He’s been on the show, good friend. – Love Gary, I love Gary. We disagree on probably 10% of things but he’s spot on on
everything else, I think. But yeah he has a very
different perspective on speed and hustle and growth and 24/7, if you’re not working hard enough, someone else is gonna out work you. I don’t believe there’s such a thing as out working anybody. Because that’s all about, when you talk it that way, you’re taking out a variable which is, does the work even matter at all? A lot of people can work hard and long and jump from meeting to another, and one coast to another, and go to this networking event and
go to this conference. Yeah, you’re busy. Yeah, you’re playing the game. You’re acting like you’re an entrepreneur and you’re busy and you’re doing it but are really doing what matters? That’s the real question. And so that’s why I don’t
like the whole aspect of working long and hard and all the time cause it doesn’t consider
value and quality in that work. Now Gary would say, Gary would agree, he would say if he were sitting here, he’d go, totally, you
gotta do what matters. If you’re not doing what
matters you’re a fucking idiot. And he’s right about that, too. But you don’t hear that
talked about enough. You just hear about the
hustle and time and the hours. – Because those are also
things, I have learned in this and in a previous life, where I was primarily a photographer, it’s like if you’re not doing the thing, someone else is, and therefor
they’re getting better at your craft, and everything is relative cause I gotta be faster
than Bobby or Sally or whatever in order to get the prize. But it’s just not true. – It’s not, I don’t think it’s true. – I’ve come to realize, it can’t be true. – It can’t be true. Cause the understanding then would be that if you just work hard enough you will get all the work that’s possible in the world. You can’t do all the work anyway. There’s so much and so many clients and so many things that you can’t possibly command it all or whatever. – Busy, shows not really being effective but it’s more a lack of
priority, it seems like. – Right, yeah. Yes, I agree, it really is. And the other reality I think is that any given day you only probably
have a good couple hours, 3, 4 hours max of really
good work anyway, in you. You can’t, you’re not
really working an 8 hour day or a 10 hour day or a 12
hour day like on the thing, you’re probably not actually. A lot of time is wasted
even in a short day, probably a lot of time is wasted on things that don’t actually matter. – There’s so much– – One other thing actually, I wanna say one other
thing about this because, part of me doesn’t like what I’m saying. cause I don’t think it’s fair, in that, I shouldn’t be giving
a 23 year old advice, cause I’m 44, it’s too far, I’m too far removed. I don’t think I should actually be, no one should listen to me about how to start a business, I haven’t started a business for 20 years. I can talk about how to run a business, I can talk about how to
build a profitable business, and how to hire people, and how to market, and how to build products,
how to make decisions, cause that’s what I do everyday. But I haven’t started a
business for 20 years. And I haven’t been 23 for 20 years. So I kind of think advice
has an expiration date. It certainly does and if
you’re starting a business you’re probably better
off talking to someone who just started one six months ago. I don’t care if they’ve made it or they haven’t or they don’t know yet, doesn’t matter. But they’re much closer to the thing. And I think in our world, in the entrepreneur world especially, there’s a lot of people dishing advice that haven’t done the thing ever, or they did it a lot time ago. And I think you need to discount that, I think advice goes
stale, has a half life, and it’s pretty quick. – It’s surprising how much advice there is out in the world and
even I try and be free with giving it and open to getting it and actually aggressively seeking it. What I found is that what it
helps me do more than anything it’s not like, oh Freddy
said hop on one leg, so I’m gonna go hop on one leg, I think it’s like, no,
Janine said hop on one leg, Freddy said, you know, do the cha cha, and Gregory said do something else and what I need to do is, I
haven’t thought about this and it’s really aggregating those opinions into something that works for you versus just like signing up wholesale for work 80 hours a week or whatever – Yes, you should absorb,
I would say you should listen to me and you
should listen to Gary. We’re polar opposites of that point and you should figure
out what works for you. It’s not about what I say or what he says, these are just points on
the spectrum basically. I think you do need to form a matrix and pay attention and then you also need to do what you believe. And I think one of the
things I had noticed, I do remember when I was younger, although again, I’m far removed from that, is that a lot of people,
it’s funny because, a lot of people who are
younger are really confident sometimes, they put off
an air of confidence but they’re really not sure what to do most of the time. And they’re afraid to
just go with their gut because they feel like they
can’t possible know it yet. I think when you’re in
college you kind of feel it but then you get out, then you’re like the king of schooling, like this is the last year of school, you now know everything. I figured out school. – Just in time to leave. – Right, then you leave. And then you’re into a
professional world where you’re a newbie, complete newbie. So that confidence goes away, I mean some people still have it, some people, they’re over confident which is bad, too. But I think people begin
to second guess themselves, like I don’t know what to do, so I’m gonna look to those who’ve done it and just do what they do. I think the only, if I was
to throw some advice back to that time, it would
be, follow your gut, trust yourself and like,
you probably know more than anyone does about you. – I’m a huge advocate of instincts. – The other thing is,
look, I believe everyone is making it up as they go, anyway. – For dang near everything. – Yes, for everything. So every business is
pretty much held together with duct tape, people are figuring out as they go, they’re making it up as they go, you know, yeah, you have ideas, you have thoughts, and you should have a
perspective and whatever. But you’re still making it up as you go. And so the idea that this
person or that person has it all, if I just read their book, I will know what to do, and if I just, they don’t know either. We know what’s worked for us. – That’s why you are so
good about articulating that in your books. – We’re clear about that. This works, and I wanna be very clear because some people
would say we’re preachy, and I see where it comes from but really we’re just sharing our story in a passionate way, hopefully, and we believe it, we believe
everything we’re saying. But this is what worked for us and your environment and your time with your collection of people, it’s gonna be different. You can not replicate something. – Was trusting your instincts something that you had to learn and
do you have some examples of where you went against your gut and it went badly? – I’ve always been that way. – Trusted your guy, you mean? – Trusted my gut, I just
feel like it most cases, now again, I’m fortunate
for a variety of reasons. My parents were very supportive,
I had two great parents, my parents are still married,
a lot of stability at home, they’ve always supported me. – It’s important to acknowledge this. – They gave me $5000 bucks
when I got out of college to get a computer and that was like to get going. So they helped with that. And there’s some things
I had clearly, obviously, I got into a lot of
trouble when I was younger. And if I was someone else I
could have spent some time somewhere else ya know. Things might not have been as rosy for me. I acknowledge all of that. But I think at the end of the day, I’ve always trusted my
gut and just gone for it. Because I feel like you might as well. If you’re gonna fight
against what you believe you’re not gonna have that happy life, I don’t think. Even if this telling you to go this way and this is telling you to go this way, you should pay attention to those inputs. But if you’re always doing
what you don’t wanna do because someone else is telling you to or the data is telling, whatever. You’re probably gonna be miserable. Unless you don’t really know where to go. And if you don’t know where to go at all, you don’t have a point of view at all, you probably will follow something else and you could probably do well. Some people do well that way. I think unbalanced though, if you spend your life
doing what other people tell you to do or what other
people say you should do you’re probably just not
gonna be that satisfied at the end of the day. And I’d rather screw up, I’d rather not live up to my potential, whatever that means, but do it my own way. And feel like I’m satisfied
and I gave it a shot in my own way, I feel like
I’m satisfied that way, otherwise I would feel
like there would be things I would have done differently,
I don’t wanna feel that way. Now when you have a business partner and you have other things, sometimes you have to
compromise, and you debate, you butt heads and you figure it out. You can’t always do what you want to do. And I’m not suggesting that’s what you should always do either. But I think for the most part, you should probably trust
your gut and your instinct there’s something in there, it’s innate, and I think it’s probably pretty smart. – Do you have the same advice for, the audience that pays
attention to this show, largely entrepreneur,
solopreneurs, small design teams, it’s basically evenly a
third, one third of people are freelancers, one third are FT’s and one third are split between people who are onto a 5th, 6th career and people who are just getting started. Really interesting and
pretty even curve across those areas of consideration. But let’s just for a
second take into account the individual, solopreneur, entrepreneur, starting a business, on his or her own, and so a lot of what we’ve
been talking about, like, your partners, your
business, set your own rules, does all the same stuff
apply to an individual creators first business? – I think it’s easier. Here’s the sort of, it’s
not the dirty secret, it’s just like– – No, no I like calling it dirty. – Alright, let’s call it dirty. Business only gets harder. The easiest business you’ll ever be in is your own business, which is you. Not it might be hard
because it’s always hard. Like getting your first client is hard. If you have nothing and
you have to get your, that’s challenging, but
it only gets harder. Because you start adding people, and they need more responsibilities, you start adding more people, pretty soon you need someone
to help manage those people. And then you’ve got personalities, you’ve got politics internally. It just gets harder. – We’re social animals so
there’s social, I get it. – Right, so, then, you’ve got a bigger monthly payroll to cover and then you probably end
up getting an office space, and then you’ve got rent. It doesn’t get easier, ever. A lot of the things about
business I think like, the smaller you are the purer it can be, and you can live up to
a lot of these ideals that become harder
actually, as you get bigger because there’s more pressures and there’s more
influences, and there’s more outside pressure, and
different forces pushing you in different directions
that you don’t have when no one’s paying
attention when it’s just you. When it’s just you, when
you talk to entrepreneurs successful ones, I know a number of them who’ve done extremely well for themself and you ask them what was their best time? It was when they were smaller. It’s when, I remember when there 5 people working out of my apartment. I remember, I haven’t talked
to Joe in a long time, but from Airbnb, Joe. – He’s been on this show.
Love Joe. Joe Gebbia. – I visited them early on when they were working out of, I think his apartment, him or Brian, whoever’s apartment it was,
maybe it was their apartment. – I think it was actually. They were Arisdy, I think. – Originally, yeah. They were working here in San Francisco. I was in town for a wedding and I wrote Joe, I love
what you guys are up to, can we meet, or whatever? He’s like, yeah come on by, so he picked me up in his pick up truck, I think it was, and we
drove it to his apartment. That’s where, Airbnb was there. And I bet, if you asked him
today, his favorite moments I’m sure there’s some amazing, they built an amazing business. But I bet there’s some
stuff, that he’d be like, I loved it when we were in our apartment. It’s funny that as a business grows it grows away from the moments that everyone really loved. And then you end up
having all this other shit you gotta deal with all the time. It’s like the good ol’ day basically. And we both decided to keep it, just the good ol’ days as best that we possibly can. It’s not like we, we used
to be 4 people or 3 people, we’re 55 now, but we’re
really trying to stay as close to the good ol’
days as we possibly can for as long as we possibly can versus jettisoning those and going
off and growing so fast that you’re so detached
from the good ol’ days. I don’t ever want to
be detached from those. – I’m gonna run through a short list of things you’ve thrown under the bus. – Okay, please. – I don’t know if it’s the proverbial bus- – Is it a short list, it
sounds like a long list. – I don’t know too many
buses that are proverbs but the, okay so you’ve talked shit about ambition. – Yeah, to some degree. We’re ambition in a different way. – Okay, let me give you the list. I’ll give a list of three things and then we can through each of them. Ambition, goals, and again
you’re like literally throwing, and quantity, I’ll say Cause you emphasize quality. So you’re talking about more people, just as the theme, you’re generally throwing quantity, you
don’t want 4 products, you want one, you don’t 100 people, you want 50 people. You don’t want quantity, you want quality. Are these universal things that, as I’m saying them, do
you really unite against– – Those three things? – And maybe there’s others,
but there’s just a theme of those three, I think goals
is especially interesting but let’s take each of these in stride. – I’d like to talk about the goals one. Let’s start with ambition though. I just think we have a
different definition of it. I think in our industry
you’d be considered ambitious if you’re working crazy hours, if you’ve raised a bunch of money, if your goal is to dominate
or destroy a competitor, like dominate a market,
destroy a competitor, conquer market share,
like there’s all these, bellicose, war like terms, that’s what ambition looks like if you were to look at it from afar. Who’s gonna build the
tallest office building, who’s gonna have the most employees, whatever it is. That’s not our definition of it. For us, it’s, do we enjoy
going to work everyday? Like, we’re ambitious there. I wanna have a great day everyday. I don’t always have a great day but that’s my ambition is to make sure that my day is free to do great work. And that everybody at our company has a whole free day to do great work. That’s what we’re ambitious about. We’re ambitious about sharing our story and telling these stories and showing that there is an alternative to what we’re rallying against. So that’s kind of another ambition is to share ideas. And to make something
great for our customers and for ourselves, that’s it. It doesn’t need to be bigger
than that, essentially. That’s just a different form of it really. Goals is a great one because at Basecamp we don’t have,
basically don’t have any goals. We don’t have, I’m gonna
get all the acronyms wrong cause we don’t have them. KPI’s, OKR’s, I don’t know
what the other ones are. We don’t have any goals, we
don’t have financial goals other than to be profitable, which we’ve been for 20 years every year. But we don’t have revenue
goals or growth goals or any customer growth goals or any number we’re trying to hit. Just, that’s not what we do. We don’t want to do that. We just want to do the best work we can. – Isn’t that a goal? – Ah, yeah, fine. I’ll give you that. But it’s like, it’s not really, it’s not a measurable goal. – Once you assume that, you’re like okay, check, that covers everything.
Everything. – Yeah, basically. I look at goals as people set numbers and they try to achieve those and then either you do or you don’t. and if you do, you set another one. If you just do the best work
you’re capable of doing, shouldn’t you be doing that anyway? What is the goal have to do
with you doing great work? If you’re just trying to
do the best work you can, you’re either gonna hit it or you’re not. But if you don’t try to
hit, you just intrinsically want to do great work,
that’s enough, I think. That’s what we’ve always believed. – How do you rally a team then? For someone who’s a
leader of a small team or even a big team. – You give em the space to do great work. And they’re intrinsically
motivated by the work itself and proud of the work that they’re doing versus the statistic. If you look at like a cabinet maker, do they need goals to be
proud of the thing they build? Finish the thing, do the joints, whatever, and sit back and look at it and go, that’s great work, I’m proud of that. They can look at it closely and go, I’m proud of that work. You know, we didn’t this,
I’ll do better next time. Whatever it might be. You don’t need to measure everything to be proud of it. You just be proud of the work. And be proud of the
people you’re working with and be proud of the interaction between the people and all the things, work is so much more
than hitting that number, it’s about like, what
was that experience like, did I enjoy working on this project, was it fun, was it enjoyable, did I learn something new? It’s that kind of stuff
that really matters. – The human stuff. – I mentioned this to Tim, on his show, about this thing, this
moment I had where I was, I don’t exactly remember the numbers, I think I was running, I run, I don’t run as much as I
used to but I run, jog, whatever, and I remember
there was awhile back where I was trying to hit some number, I think it was like 6 minute mile, whatever the hell it was, and I did a 6:09 or something. And I remember feeling
like upset for a second that I didn’t hit the 6. And then just like, why does that matter? Did I enjoy the run? Did I go out and have a good run, yeah. Am I, feel like I worked out, yeah. Did I get some fresh air, yeah. All the things I got
from it were the value, the nine seconds didn’t matter at all. Why would it matter? Why should it matter
and why should I leave that moment feeling like I
didn’t do what I set out to do. I didn’t achieve the goal
that I made up for myself that I just made. There’s no reason that I had to run a six, maybe I should have
set it at 6:09 or 6:08, Why’d I pick six? Why, it’s all arbitrary for the most part. It’s few experiences like that plus just the recognition that like whenever we set a goal
that’s number based, it sort of discounts all the other things that where the real value is. So that’s why we don’t believe in goals. And then last one was,
what was the last one? – It was a lot of, like
you’re not seeking quantity. – Quantity. – Or sort of, I guess maybe
it’s it would be filed under ambition, I was
looking for just threads. It’s like less people, less
number of products, less– – It’s easier, so getting
back to the laziness, in a sense, it’s easier to do that. I think also, a lot of things
that are about quantity and size are ego, it’s all ego. And I’ve learned to check that as much as I possibly can. And we all have it, still, of course. But just to aware of why is
that I want to hit this number? Is it so I can tell people about it? And if I tell people about, why am I doing that, is
it just to puff me up? I’ll still do that from time to time and I’ll catch myself and go on Twitter, we sold this many books. Why am I saying those things? And some it is like cause I’m proud of it. But a lot times it’s
because of something else that’s deeper that’s not healthy. And so of course, we all have ego, you can’t probably get rid of it. But it is sort of the enemy, as Ryan Holiday wrote. It’s a force you need to be careful about. I think a lot of the numbers chasing, a lot of the puffing, all that stuff is really about ego. And we just try to remove
as much of that as we can. – Have you done that much of personal work to be able to work through that or is this like a thing that
you’re parents taught you, going back to you being an only child and deciding that you were becoming aware that you knew what you
wanted and what you didn’t and these were things that were earthly? – I don’t know. I don’t know where it came from. I’ve become more aware
of it recently, I guess. Reading Ryan’s book was important for me, although I felt it was
kind of one of these books where you read it and you’re like, oh yeah, I’ve kind of felt this way but I didn’t understand why. – That’s what a good book does right? It codifies or puts into words something you’ve been feeling. – Which is like the thing with Toby and the trust battery thing. Like we kind of had thought about that but didn’t know what to call it. I think that was part of it. I feel like a lot of the ego victories I’ve ever had have been very shallow and very temporary. And it just doesn’t feel worth it to put all that energy into something that’s so shallow and temporary basically. And I still have more work to do in this area, of course, But it’s something I’m
paying attention to lately, especially lately, I don’t really know why other than a few things got into, I read some of Ryan’s
books, got a little bit into Stoicism, got into some other things that are really kind of clarifying some of these things for me. And maybe it’s just maturity as well. I think probably ten years
ago I wouldn’t have been ready for some of these things maybe, I wasn’t quite there yet. Also, just general observation, I see a lot of people who are ego driven and they end up miserable because you can never really quench it. You can never fill that thing, you can never, ever get it out of the way. And so if that’s what
you’re trying to fill up, if that’s the thing
you’re trying to fill up, you’re never gonna get there and you’re just gonna be
chasing these false things and I don’t wanna do that either. – I think you’ve done a
great job of articulating your personal compass. You just listed a few, I guess influences. Let’s pull on that
thread just a little bit. Other influences like
Scandinavian design or you mentioned– – Architecture. – Sure, Architecture. The Dahli Llama. You got
a couple of quotes here. – I’ve thrown a few quotes out. I have a lot of quotes. – What are just some
of, survey Jason Fried’s mind scape and what are some influences, what has helped shape
your view of the world. – Sure, I’ll throw out
a variety of probably random things. – Yeah, this is what I’m hoping for. – I’ve always been a
big fan of architecture. I love walking into
buildings and getting a feel for how they make you feel and space, I’ve always like space. I’ve studied architecture for a long time. – Informally, formally? – Informally, I would never
be able to put up with school to study it formally. – Yeah, brutal, I was
not good at that stuff. But I’ve always looked
at, I like materials, I like to look, I’m curious,
first thing I’m like, wrought iron, is this wrought iron, look at the wood, what is it like? I’ve always been curious about how things join together, quality of something, how it feels, how it
ages, I look to at things and how they age. That’s how I actually
judge quality on things. A lot of modern architecture for example, true modern, like today’s
modern architecture, I don’t think it’s really good because it doesn’t look
good in five years. The way a lot of building are white, they’re this sort of trend
to make white buildings but then you get rust
stains that come down because they didn’t use
a stainless steel screw in the roof, so you get,
they don’t look good as they get older. And when you get look at things
like old buildings, brick, stone, wood, these things just age and they look better and better over time. I like to pay attention
to those kind of details in things. I love nature, I love just taking walks, I love looking very closely at nature. I think that– – Give me an example. – Flowers, plants,
specifically like flowers. I like to go look at flowers cause I think people are always looking
through design annuals to find color combinations that work or shapes or like ideas. Go look at a flower, you can’t beat it. And if you look really close you can start to see how everything’s,
like how they have, the shapes repeat, and
there’s just some real beauty in how it’s structured and the how colors always bleed together. It’s very rare that you have sharp colors that hit, they tend to
gradiate into each other. I always find that to be interesting. Just how, nature’s the
best design solution. If you look at nature, these things have been perfected for millions of years. Like this leaf is the
best leaf it’s ever been, ever, right? So people are looking towards
other software products, if I’m in the software
world, I never want to look at software to get inspiration. I wanna look at leaves,
I wanna look at plants, I wanna look at trees, I
wanna look at buildings, I wanna look at furniture,
I wanna look at other things that are designed, that
have been considered and thought through from
a different perspective. Because if you just look at software, if you’re in the software
business and you look at software, you’re gonna end up
making what everyone else is making. Everything we make, we
try to make from a unique point of view, which is
based on other things, and not what everyone else is doing. Primarily because I don’t
think, again I don’t want to chase, I don’t wanna do
what other people are doing because then I don’t really
understand why I’m doing it. I’m just doing it because
everyone else is doing it. That’s part of it too. So architecture design materials, nature, I have some land up in Wisconsin that I’ve been restoring over time which has been a really fun project, it’s like a 10 year project almost so far. Taking this land back to the
way it was supposed to be before it was farmed
and tilled and sort of invasive species have
come in, so I’m doing prairie restoration and some stuff. Which is really fun to watch. Very slow process and that’s something that’s really inspiring
me, is takes 10 years to get some of this basic stuff done. Like you’d come and look at the land and you’d be like, yeah okay. And I’d be like, you don’t even understand what’s happened here in 10 years. Let me take you through and
that’s really fun for me. What else? The other thing is, frankly,
when it comes to business I’m way more inspired by the
local corner grocery store than I am by Amazon or Apple
or any of these companies. In fact, I’m jealous of
the small businesses, real small businesses. I’ve got a friend who owns a grocery store down the street from me
and he knows his customers by name. We have at Basecamp, we
have over 100,000 people who pay for Basecamp, companies. I’ll never know their names. We’re the scale where I can’t actually know our customers, or
customers, ultimately are numbers and data and I know some of them. But I would love to be
able to own a business where if someone walked
in the door and I’d hey, hey Jim, hey Joan, and
just get to know them and know who they are. I admire those kind of
businesses and I think about how can we be more like them. We can’t really, but are there
ways we can more like them. So I don’t think it’s a good idea to look to your own industry and look up. I think it’s good to
look at other industries and actually look at
different kinds of businesses that are smaller and get
to the real pure side of what business is all about. Which is good product,
treating people well, returning someone’s
call when they call you, knowing someone’s name,
and that kind of basic fundamental stuff like
your grandparents would do if they had a shop, that kind of thing. – What drives you crazy, in a bad way? – Wasting time, like I cannot stand, luckily we don’t have meeting anymore, but when I was in the
client services business, like doing client work,
I’d have to go to meetings, they’d want me to drive
over and talk about this thing that literally
we could talk about on the phone in five minutes. And I’d have to go over there and commute and go there and sit there and we’d talk for an hour when it was only five minutes worth of stuff. But you’re there so you keep going. That’s one example of wasting time. But processes that don’t have to happen, time that doesn’t have to be
spent on those kinds of things, traffic, hate traffic. Traffic to me is the
ultimate waste of time. Bad place for that. But traffic to me is one of those things where it’s like, man this is, yeah you can listen to an
audio book, or a podcast or something, but it
feels like a waste of time to be doing that in that setting. The other thing I would say in business that drives me a little
bit crazy, I would say, is how our industry specifically holds up, businesses that are actually terrible fundamental businesses, as huge successes that people try to follow. Take Uber for example,
for a variety or reasons I’m not a fan of theirs, I do still use their product sometimes though. But they just lost $100
billion last quarter, I think. So they’re just hemorrhaging money. And they’re gonna go IPO and some people are gonna get rich but
it’s a shitty business. But people look at that and go, I wanna be the next Uber of, I wanna be the next, you wanna be the next like billion dollar
loser of this business? I don’t understand why bad businesses, great ideas, totally, but bad businesses are being help up as the model businesses. I think that’s really unfortunate
and really irresponsible of sort of the industry at large to celebrate that kind of stuff. – I think there’s this big,
we’re a culture of lemmings, we’re a culture of attention,
or the attention goes, some of it gets attracted
and that breeds more. And that’s why I know of
started off with thinking joyously and joyfully of
you and your partner David and Basecamp and what
you’ve built and the books, as a little bit of contrarian culture but it doesn’t seem like
it’s in and of itself. Contrarianism for contrarian ism’s sake, it’s really more like, no, no we’ve actually thought about it, we don’t want to run a business like Uber. – Yeah, don’t want to. – What do we value? We value freedom, independence, authority over our own domain, a lot of I think that’s part of why I was so excited to have you on the show and I was gonna, if you
could give some advice, flip this to the positive
and instead of like framing it as negative and contrary it’s a really powerful tool that way you personally have applied it. So give some advice for the folks, knowing that we’ve got
all sorts of different walks of people, creators
and entrepreneurs listening try and give some advice to them to help them think more like you. – The first thing is I would say do whatever you can to practice getting good at saying no. Which is really hard
when you’re brand new. You come into a new company
and you can’t be the no person. You start a new business it’s hard to be the no person, you want
to take all the business you can get, I get all of that. But somehow find a way
to practice saying no. Because no is the only
word that will ever protect your time and attention,
that’s all you’ve got. And everyone wants a piece of it. And wants a piece of more and more, more and more people want a piece of it. Technology wants a piece of it, other people want a piece of it, and if you don’t have any of that left for yourself, you’re
never gonna be able to do what you want to do. You’re never gonna be
able to think the way you want to think and
act the way you wanna act because your time is now
owned by everyone else. I’m not being, I feel like
I’m failing on the question to a degree because I’m
being totally practical. I don’t have, there’s
no silver bullet clap, snap you fingers, clap your hands, way to be good at this, but what I’ve noticed, here’s one like more practical thing. Client services, you
probably have a lot of people who watch this who are
designers, photographers, that sort of crew, right? And something I hear from
them all the time is, you’re lucky cause you
have, they’re saying to me, you’re lucky because you
have a product business. I have to answer to
clients and if a client call me at 11 o’clock at night
I have to answer the phone. And I say, fuck no you do not. That’s a place to practice. Just because someone pays you does not mean they own you. It certainly does not mean they own your nights and weekends or
any of that kind of stuff. People think that their
clients actually expect that from people but they typically don’t, you give it to them, by answering the calls
at 11 o’clock at night, or by getting back to them
in email at ten 10:30. You’re giving them
permission to ask that again and you set the tone. So practical, basic thing
is, and this happens all the time, so I know
this a practical one, for all you kids at home. We said we were gonna do that. Is that, if it’s late
at night, it’s 9:30, 10, whatever it is, and one
of your clients writes you and they’re demanding something or asking for something,
just don’t respond and get back to them the next morning. And see what happens,
most likely it’ll be fine. If they go, hey what the hell, like why didn’t you get back to me, say it was 10, and it’s either family time or I’m sleeping or I’m
reading or I’m watching, whatever, it’s my time,
I’ll get back to you the next morning, first
thing in the morning I’ll get back to you,
you’re my top priority in the morning, when my day starts. You probably won’t have to do that though, you’ll probably just find that people are cool with it. And you just imagine that they were not, so a lot of this stuff is about you setting the tone and
you setting the direction for a relationship,
professional relationship with other people, especially clients. So that would be the one practical thing I would say is do not answer that email late at night, wait til the next morning. It’s gonna be okay. That’ll build your confidence and that’s one way you can begin to start saying no and getting
comfortable with saying no and realizing that no is
a very reasonable answer in many cases. You might think it’s
not but it actually is. And that’s the best way to build a moat around your time and attention which is all you’ve got. I know that was a bit circular but that’s where we end up. – I think it all plugs together nicely so there’s a voice inside
our head that often works against us. – I know that voice. – That creates a lot of
stories. That’s basically my question is, so do you have this voice, have you trained it, if we’re just habits, what are some of things that you’ve done to either unlearn these bad habits or rather, if you wanna
put it in the positive, to train yourself to feel good about ignoring that client email at 10 pm or whatever. How do you train your own habits? – I think the key is, is
first I don’t think you can unlearn or reverse something. You have to transition into something. So a big part of it is
not being disappointed if you screw up again. Cause if you’re like, I’m
not gonna do this anymore, then you do it again and you’re upset, that’s unreasonable and
you’re putting unreasonable demands on yourself. So I think it’s about knowing
that any sort of transition between one course of action and another is going to take time. And it’s gonna be a smooth transition, might be some bumps along the way. But you just have to set a
slightly different course and know it’s gonna take
some time to get there. That’s the only thing that I’ve found that works for me. Like, cold turkey, is a
very difficult thing to do for people and I don’t think
it’s a really successful pattern for most. Some people are really good
at, I’ll never do this again, and they’re great at that. I don’t think it’s reasonable
necessarily for most people. So I think as you’re
transitioning be extremely easy on yourself. Because you can talk yourself
out of the transition really quickly and then
bounce back to the bad habit. So I think that’s the thing
I’ve figured out how to do is just to be fair and kind to myself as I’m changing, otherwise
it’s not so good. – Anything else you do
specifically for self care? Other than just being kind to yourself? – Sleep is important,
although I have a new baby. We just had a baby two months ago. – Congratulations. – Thank you very much. – Eight weeks? – Eight weeks old. – You look great for
having an eight week old. – I feel tired right now, to be honest. But thank you very much. My wife is, she’s enduring
a little bit more of it right now, we have a four year old, too. So we’ve been through
this once but of course in the first few months
it’s really difficult on the mother, feeding
and the whole thing. But we’re doing okay right now. But sleep is the most important thing. And there’s a great book, Why We Sleep, I don’t know if you’ve read that or have heard of it. – I just saw it on your
feed the other day. – Wonderful, highly recommend it. It’s really enjoyable and interesting. Smart guy, but can write a book in a really approachable way, cause I’m not a scientist, but it’s scientific, wonderful book. But sleep is the one thing
that affects everything. So you gotta exercise, you gotta eat well and all that stuff. But you could actually
eat like shit for a week and you’d kind of be alright. You can skip exercise for a week and you’d kind of alright. If you get a few bad nights
of sleep, you’re trash, like everything in your body is trash. Heath wise you’re bad, your temper is bad, people know that you haven’t slept well. – Cognition is down. – Cognition’s down, can’t remember things. You’re not nice, all these things. So sleep’s really
important, so I try to get seven to eight hours of
sleep right now, a night. Usually like to get a
little bit more than eight but right now it’s just not quite possible with the kids but okay,
I’ll get back to that. Gotta exercise a few days a week. I’m not like crazy about it. I’m not, I don’t do like– – Ultra marathons– – No I’ll do a couple
mile jog here and there. I will work out with a
trainer a few days a week. I’ll go for long walks. I’ll do stuff, got a
rowing machine, got a bike, that kind of stuff. – Move, move your body. – I gotta move, you gotta
move, you gotta just feel like, I think you gotta feel like
things are circulating. But I’m not a big fan of the
boot campy, style work outs where you’re tired. Because you’ve got a life, too. And if you try, if you burn
all your energy by 9 am, early in the morning at the gym, it’s sort of hard to live your day out. I’m actually more of a fan
of working out in a way where you end up having
more energy at the end of the workout than you came in with. Versus like burning it all
off and sweating yourself wet and you’re like exhausted. That doesn’t really work for me, at least. Gotta eat well, exercise and sleep. But sleep is so critical. And also the other thing is perspective. Getting away from the thing that you love. I love to work, I love
the work that we’re doing. And I want to be able to come back to it everyday excited versus exhausted. Or never get away from it, then you never get to see it again. There’s something that’s nice about if you’re always in it
you just can’t see it. You’re too close to it. You need to be able to back away. That’s another thing. I’d say those four things. Perspective is really a key thing. – What about your specific personal habits in the morning or evening? Is there anything you do because sleep, reason I’m asking one layer deeper, is because I was a terrible sleeper for the first 38 years of my life. Terrible, terrible,
like I can hear somebody and wake up. I could hear someone
jogging past my house, outside my house, freakish
level of awareness while sleeping and it was just not great. So I shifted gears and
did a bunch of stuff so that’s why I wanna go one level deeper. And you started doing a
little bit with fitness. But what about sleep? Are there things you do in particular to drive sleep? – Yes, I’ve been learning more about this, really important. I used to work out at the end of the day. I just tend to have a little
more energy during the day but that’s not really that
great if you go to sleep, I have to go to sleep
early now, like by 9, cause my son gets up at like 5:30. – Which means you get up at 5:30. – So I’ve gotta go to sleep earlier. So I can’t work out at
7:30, cause that’s too close to being, so more exercise
earlier in the day is key. I try to go 15 hours between meals. I’m doing the intermittent fasting. Or like time restricted eating. It depends on who you talk to. Some people are like, that’s not a fast, it’s time, whatever. So I eat dinner and I don’t eat breakfast for about 15 hours, 14 to
16 basically, usually 15ish. That’s really been very interesting. We can talk more about that in a minute. And I’ve done, I try
not to look at a screen. There’s light in your
room, but look at a screen for a good 90 minutes before I go to bed although I’m not always good at that. That’s the most challenging. It shows you how addictive and dangerous these devices actually are. I’m consciously trying
not to and I still grab, reach for it. Exercise, I try also not to
go to sleep within three hours of eating dinner. I wanna eat dinner earlier
so I have some time. Some of those things have
really made a big difference. I don’t know if we’re allowed
to talk about products that I use. – So I use something called an Oura ring. Are you familiar with that product? – I just saw their next,
yeah, I have a sizing kit on my desk. – Okay, awesome. I started using that recently. I’ve used other things in the past too. – So it’s a-u-r-a? – O-u-r-a. I’ve used other things in the past which have worked as well also. – Sleep tracker. – Sleep tracking things. But what I like about the ring is that, so when I travel, there’s other devices I’ve used that go under your
bed or under your mattress. But that only works if you’re sleeping in your own bed. And sometimes I’m not. Or sometimes now since we have this baby sometimes we’ll sleep in different beds depending on the sound, so that doesn’t really
work for me right now. So this ring is great, you
throw it on your finger and it tracks your sleep
and it’s quite accurate from what I’ve read. It’s been very enlightening. I can tell now, certain foods
I eat around dinner time, effect my sleep. When I exercise, definitely
effects my sleep. If I have screens it
definitely effects my sleep. So now I have some feedback,
a feedback mechanism in which to make slightly better decisions and see the impact. It’s now always direct,
cause sometime you just have a shitty night, and sometimes
you have a great night even though you did something wrong. But you can see trends
and you start finally pick up on, ah, you
know what, if I do this, it’s definitely effecting my sleep. So I’ve been doing that a lot which has really been helping quite a bit. There’s also a bit of placebo,
or maybe it’s not a placebo I guess it probably wouldn’t be, but there’s a bit of a
placebo when you look at your sleep information in the morning. I go, oh shit, I had good night’s sleep. I actually do feel better. I really do. And maybe it’s because I did
have a good night’s sleep but it’s extra multiplying. – I wonder if Oura takes
that into consideration? – I don’t know. – Speaking of devices,
let’s just shift gears. Oura, that ring is phenomenal. Kevin Rose, a friend of ours, is also very passionate about it. So you track your sleep, working out, all that kind of stuff. We talked before the
camera started rolling about technology. I wanted to go back to that. You mentioned screens, how
does it negatively effect, how do screens negatively
affect you and your world and your health? You’re in the business of creating things that are on screens. – During the day. – During the day. Okay, good, this is why
I want you to qualify it. – So actually there’s
a feature in Basecamp 3 called Work Can Wait. Which allows, each individual employee, anyone who uses Basecamp, to set their own work hours in the product and outside those work hours, Basecamp cannot send you any notifications or any emails or anything. So mine are set from 9 to 5. So at 5:01 Basecamp is
essentially holding my calls to use a parlons basically. And I will not get a single notification from Basecamp until the next morning. That’s like our little
tiny roll in the world is to try to like create some work life separation there. These devices I think
are extremely dangerous because they’re just hitting
your dopamine receptors, or whatever, I don’t know the science, but you have dopamine constantly, picking this thing up,
picking this thing up, picking this thing up, they’re highly addictive. They reward addictive behavior. I found them to be also a gateway for negative information to get into your brain. I think that if you, I found that Twitter specifically, even
friends that you follow, there’s just a lot of bitching on Twitter. And there’s a lot of negativity on Twitter And some of it’s negativity
you might agree with, some of it’s negativity
you may not agree with, but I still just don’t even
want even it if I agree with it, cause I don’t want to
get enraged about stuff. I don’t want this thing
to make me pissed off. And it does a lot of the time. So I’ve been really working on not paying attention to that, and hiding
people, or muting people that are posting anything
that’s not like uplifting or anything you know. I think this is a way,
unfortunately for negativity to get in your brain. And to get you upset about things. I don’t wanna be that way. Also, that’s one of the reasons
I don’t follow the news. I used to follow the news,
I used to be news junkie. And I don’t pay attention
to the news at all anymore. – And you still get it. – You get it, because you can’t not get it if you pick up your phone. But also, nothing, shouldn’t say nothing, almost nothing really matters right now. So I hear about it the next day if I read the paper, it’s funny, I was at a hotel and they’re like, would you like a newspaper? And I was like, yeah I
will actually this time, I’ll take the newspaper. Would you like the USA Today? I don’t know, it doesn’t matter, New York Times, it doesn’t matter. So I get the paper and I’m
reading the paper in the morning. This is best fucking
format for news, ever. Because it’s everything I
can of really want to know or need to know essentially, once a day, that’s enough. It summarizes what happened yesterday. And that’s enough. That’s the right cadence I think for news. Maybe once a day, maybe
even every few days, maybe once a week’s probably enough. Everything is breaking news, 24/7, everything’s a hot story. Like none of this shit is a hot story that matters right now. Unless there’s a natural disaster, like you’re in the path of a hurricane, you wanna know that. A lot of other things can wait. I’m more a fan of things
that can wait than right now. And so anyway I think
that these devices are polluting us in a lot of
ways and I think it’s real unfortunate. I think a time of reckoning is coming. You’re seeing people’s
attitudes are starting to shift and turn and I think people are beginning to realize. – Look at Apple with screen time, monitoring how much
time you’re on each app, what category of app, allowing
you to turn things off after a certain amount of time. You gotta know that they have the data. If the data is saying we’ve gotta give these people control over their own sort of how much impact
our devices have on them. That’s on accident
because they’re typically, products want you to use them more. That is there mechanism in life is to engage you. And if someone like
Apple is already sort of curbing that there’s, they
don’t do that on accident. – We were sort of riffing
on this a little bit earlier of this idea that, I was thinking like, with cigarettes, I
wouldn’t be surprised if social media in general is eventually seen as the next cigarette. That we look back on this and go, wow. This was incredibly unhealthy for like kids, for adults, for everybody. For our brains, for our developments, for our egos, for all these things. – Was does a 100 dopamine hits a day do for someone? – It’s gonna wear your
brain out, it has to. We’re not built for that. Something’s gonna happen
and this is the first generation that’s had
daily hits like that. And it’ll be for decades. Something’s gonna go wrong at some point. You think about Phillip-Morris. They knew cigarettes were bad and they withheld that science and that’s what people
really got pissed off about in the end. It wasn’t that people
made a personal choice to smoke cigarettes, it
was that the companies knew they were bad and didn’t
tell you, basically. And you kind of wonder in some ways if these technology
companies are beginning to heed that call and go, you know, we should be getting in there, we know, like you said, they have the data, we know the stuff is
probably not good for you. Even just for sleep. Sleep affects every system in your body and they have, I forget
what’s it called now, like night shift or whatever, on the Mac, and in the phone. It’s good, by the way I think it’s great that these things exist. But it’s kind of also
like you could almost cynically say that is
a way to guard against the liability. We know this is bad and
we’re giving you tools to prevent it. Like you wouldn’t
imagine a cigarette maker ever making a cigarette
pack that would only dispense three a day. But that’s kind of what
Apple and if Android has this same stuff, probably
does, it’s kind of doing, they’re saying, we’re
giving the tools to do that. – You can over it, there’s
a button on the bottom that’ll let you override it. – You can override it cause it’s freedom, you can do whatever you want. – Because freedom. – But at some point, you
know how they have like haptic feedback on the
screen, maybe it’ll have like electric shock,
extend for 15 minutes, don’t do that, like you’ll
have to pay for that. Anyway I think that you’re
right they have the data, they know, as these are
definitely affecting us. And we’re gonna see what the affects are in a number of years. I think it’s too early
but people are beginning to notice, yeah. And I think the general
pushback against, too, against companies like Facebook
and these other companies where they’re saying like. This is a probably a net
negative, yeah I know it’s cool to get together with
your high school friends or stay in touch with long lost relatives. Like there’s definitely
value in that for sure, but net negative because
of everything else. And I think people are
starting to wake up to that. It’s happening. – Those are a couple of things
that we think are weird, or pisses us off, or frustrating,
let’s flip the script. What are some of things that you love? What are, just again, wild,
feel free to cover any domain, like what are some of the things you love? – I love seeing, there’s this book, I can’t remember what it’s called, let’s see if I can
remember, it’s a book on, there’s two of em I think, on Russian folk inventions and Eastern European ones. Where this person went to
these small Russian towns where people didn’t have
much during Communism specifically but they needed things. They needed a shovel
but they couldn’t afford a shovel, there’s no shovels at the store. And so they would take a
stick and an old coffee can and like make a shovel out of it. I love that those two books
cause there’s this catalog of these super, super clever inventions. And what I’m getting at
is, I love ingenuity. I love when I see people solve a problem in a clever way that’s
the simplest, possible way to solve the problem. Cause there’s, you could
brute force some solutions to things and then it
doesn’t seem as interesting. But when people have very
little and they solve really clever, creative
problems, that’s something whenever I see that, it
always makes me smile. Whatever it is, doesn’t matter what it is, that’s the kind of stuff I really dig. I love things that are just built well to last. So one of my weird hobbies
is I collect vintage watches. This is actually a new
watch, this is not old. But I mostly collect older stuff. Because they work forever. And they’re built to
last forever, essentially and as long as someone
oils it and cleans it once every decade,
essentially, it will last forever, and that’s an
amazing thing to me. That I can put a watch
on that’s 75 years old and it works just fine. And nothing we make today, not nothing, most of things we make today will not last anywhere near that long
because we don’t live in that kind of world anymore. Devices we use are extinct, essentially, in a few years. A lot of the things we
make today are disposable. They’re meant to be disposable. And there’s a ton of waste around that. So I love running into things that go like this is well made, it’s gonna last and it’s worth paying for. It could be furniture, it
could a piece of clothing, it could be a home, it could be anything. I love that kind of stuff. I also love looking at things that, things that I could never do. That’s kind of stuff I love the most. Like, some rugs you look
at are hand knotted. I looked at some of these Turkish rugs and to think that someone
hand knotted that design. And I don’t know how long it took but it took forever. I couldn’t do that. I’m so thoroughly impressed
by that kind of stuff. I love that kind of stuff
that just blows me away. What an amazing pursuit and patience and artistic ability and all those things that kind of combination of things, that always gets me. Simple like, again, being out in nature, and just seeing the inventions of nature. I just love that. It’s funny cause there’s nothing in nature I don’t like. And there’s a lot of things you can say that you don’t like about other things. But it’s hard to go out in nature and go, I don’t like that. – So true. – Everything is just
right, it’s just right. Seeing natural systems work is really fascinating to me. I could go on and on. There’s a lot of things I like. I also like really well written sentences. I just love sentences. – Precision and craft and yeah. – There’s a great book that I liked called On Writing Well, I think
is the title of it, and it’s got a terrible cover, it has like a CD on it, it’s like I don’t understand the cover but it’s, I’m sorry it’s called Revising Prose. By the way, On Writing
Well, is another good book about writing. Revising Prose, and this guy talks about how to write sentences. And he just squeezes
all that fat out of em but doesn’t make em sterile. I think that’s the real art. How do you like really compress a sentence and be concise but be also let it flower. There’s something really beautiful about really well written sentences. So I love like, whenever I read something, I’m like, that’s a good line. Or I hear something and I watch a movie, that’s a great line. I love lines. I don’t know, there’s more things. – These are all beautiful. How about some resources for other people? You’ve listed a couple of books. Is there a couple of things that are just Jason Fried go tos? That was a fine answer or
I hate when people ask me. I’m not saying, superlative,
what’s your favorite, I hate being asked those questions. – I’m on the spot on those. – I’ve got a favorite thing right now. – I think for me it’s, this
is not what I’d recommend specifically but it’s kind of a direction, which is find something
that’s sort of parallel to what you do and get into that. So that’s what I’ve always
found to be enlightening. For example, I’m into
technically graphic design, software design, but I pay more attention to architecture and furniture design and that kind of stuff. Which is close enough to what I do where I can draw some lessons from it. But it’s new. And it’s different. I have to use a different part of my brain to think about why it’s
good and why it’s not. So I think that’s one thing as a general go to. Like what do you kinda do
and it’d be if you’re a cook and you’re really deep into Italian food, get into Spanish food for awhile. It’s still cooking and
learn that kind of thing. – Adjacent areas of knowledge. – Adjacent areas of knowledge, yeah. I think that’s something I would recommend people get into. I would also take more
walks without a device and just look up. Everyone’s looking down,
I feel like we’re gonna have these really strong
necks in the future and we’re not actually
gonna be able to look up. Cause everyone is always looking down. – Big eyes and a hunched over neck. – Yeah, totally, something like that. It’s gonna be some weird thing. – Alien look. – Just walk around, get out in the woods, walk around, look around,
that kind of stuff. Which, it’s not, the cool
thing is, I know in some areas that’s harder to do but it’s accessible at some level for most people and it doesn’t cost anything just to go take a walk,
hopefully into some woods. – It’s amazing how refreshing that can be. – It really is. – I’m gonna try to bring
this back to work now. – See if you can do that. – I do love, but to me
that’s a real core message that the show has been
about for 10 years now, which is, areas of influence outside. That’s why the show was developed in fact because I wanted to
learn from other people who are outside my area of expertise, to bring them and to
be able to be inspired and what not. So are there influences outside, you’re very clear of saying this is how we do it. Are there other places that are at work are inspiring to you,
like do you look at– – Other companies, yeah. – Yeah, other companies,
or other cultures, you’re very careful I
think and that’s probably why you can do a good
job of making such bold statements as like what
I’m saying right here is not for everybody but it worked for us. In line with the questions
about your outside inspirations and now
bringing this back to work, are there other models that you look to for brilliance in work style? – Yeah, I admire any
organization of any kind that works, that’s sustainable. I’ll give you something specific actually, cause that’s very broad
and not very helpful. One of the guys who
inspired David and I a lot early on was this guy
named Ricardo Semler. You should try and get him on your show. He’s great, he’s from Brazil He wrote this book called Maverick. Which was a book about his business, he inherited this
business from his father. It’s a big Brazilian company,
big industrial company, they make oil pumps for oil tankers, big huge, completely
different from our world. – Industry. – Industry, hard industry,
heavy industry stuff. He got this business from his father, cause that’s how it works in Brazil, it’s handed down. He gets this business,
I feel like I remember this book is awhile, it’s
been probably 15, 20 years since I’ve read the book,
or 15 years or something. But I remember he said something about he got this big rule book. And he started looking through the book and he’s like, I don’t
understand any of this, none of this makes sense to me. We’re gonna throw this out. I’ve inherited this business
but I’m gonna do it my own way. I’m gonna go talk to people, like how should we run this thing, and what should we do here, and what are the things we
should do, what’s different? And he came up a vastly different way of running a business, in
a very traditional country, in a very traditional industry. He did things like, we don’t do this but, everyone’s salary is out in the open. Everyone can see whatever they make and they can give themselves raises. You give yourself a raise
because it’s public. So if you’re gonna give yourself a raise and everyone’s gonna know
what you’re giving yourself there’s some self regulation there because you’re not gonna,
and also if you don’t live up to your new salary, you
could lose your job. But it’s about, what do
you think you’re worth? And why don’t you prove it. And I thought was, we haven’t done that, but that’s really interesting. He would let their
employees hire managers. Typically a manager would hire employees but the employees that get
to hire their own manager. Some of the stuff has been
adopted in other places but it’s still very rare
and 15 years ago or so it was very, very rare. The factory floor where
they made the stuff can be rearranged by the
people making the stuff. They can’t paint things
any color they want, they can move machines
around any way they want. It’s not like a foreman’s job to say this is how it has to be. He was very early about
working reasonable work hours. His whole feeling was,
if work can take you away from life at 3:30 in the
afternoon on Sunday for a call, why can’t you go see a movie at 3:30 in the afternoon on a Monday while you’re supposed to be at work. It’s gotta be equal, so
he’s very big into that. – One more time, what’s his name? – His name’s Ricardo Semler and the book is called Maverick. He wrote another book
called, something about 7 day weekend or something, but there’s another book
out with a similar title, I’m not sure. Look up name, Ricardo
Semler, and Maverick. Highly recommend reading that book. The cool thing about him
is he’s taken these ideas and brought into it education in Brazil. So he’s opened schools
around a very different method of education rather
than a very traditional classroom, lecture style,
teacher thing, sitting behind desk, and made
it very participatory. And it’s apparently it’s been, from what I understood,
at least back then, it was doing very well. I don’t know how it’s doing now or what he’s doing. But really fascinating guy. I’ve drawn a lot of inspiration from him. Like, you just don’t have to do things the way everyone else does. And find the thing that works for you. And just cause no one else has done it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. And just because everyone
else is doing it this way doesn’t mean it’s working either. They’re just doing it this way. Which is why the same thing about, people work, as we talked
about in the beginning, working long or working hard doesn’t mean you’re working well. It just means you’re working hard and working long. It doesn’t have any
correlation with actually the output of what you’re
producing and the quality. Very similar there, he’s wonderful. – Anybody else? – People like, this is such
a cliche, boring answer but like Warren Buffett
and Charlie Munger. I just so admire those guys. I mean it’s hard not to, I suppose. But what I admire about them is their fundamental understanding of what matters and what doesn’t. Their focus on value, their rejection of trends in favor of just what sound and Charlie Munger is a quote machine. He’s so thoughtful and so smart. He’s like 92 and still there. The other thing is like
Berkshire Hathaway, the company, which is a massive company, I believe they have
something like 25 or 30 employees, that’s it,
give or take 5 or 10. But like small company. They companies they run are large but this group that owns the companies is actually quite small. And so I take a lot of
inspiration from that, too. That they can do that with a small crew. And that they’ve chosen to
do it with a small crew. So I love those guys. They’re one of a kind, or
two of a kind, I guess. But it’s also, the end of an era. They’re both 80’s and 90’s now. But I really respect and admire them. I love to read, like
Warren Buffett’s letters to his shareholders,
must read for anybody. – If you’re listening
right now and you haven’t ever read one of those letters you should go search the internet
right now and go read one. – Must read, they’re so good. And they’re not only,
they’re just great prose, it’s clear minded writing. – I could see how you would just love it. – It’s so good, it’s so good. You don’t have to care about business, it has nothing to do with business. – Like money, or anything. – God damn, it’s so good. So I love that. Bezos has been writing really good shareholder letters too. He’s clearly inspired by them. I like reading his stuff as well. – Couple of Bezos things to wrap this up. He talked about being wildly misunderstood for long periods of time. Do you feel like that’s
what’s happening right now, that you’ve got it right with business and the way to work. Because you really write about work. And it’s just, you’re being,
people are misunderstanding, you sell a lot of books,
and you have a lot of fans and customers but for pop culture they’re gonna come around at some point and you’re gonna be on the right side– – I think it’s gonna get
worse before it gets better. I think at some point it’s going to turn. It’s interesting, there is a trend, by the way, this is primarily
an American problem. In Germany they will
primarily work 40 hour weeks and they do amazing work. Scandinavian countries
work, France, I believe, they’re cutting back. – 34, 32 now. – 32 now. And some people in America,
like I used to feel this way, well you know, but look what we’ve built. And look what they’ve done. But they’re happier and they live longer. – They’ve been taking August
off for like 500 years. And now we’re like, I
don’t wanna work so much in August, it’s really
nice to have more time. – Right, exactly. – All of my internet tech friends are trying to figure out how to work less in August. – There ya go. – When I lived in France I
was like putting my feet up. – Totally, and there’s
more to life than work. That’s what they figured out. I think in time more
and more of these ideas will sort of ripen up for other people. But I think it might be awhile. I think it’s gonna get worse for awhile. – Disagree and commit. Another Bezos quote. – That was a Bezos thing, which is, something we practice as well but again didn’t really
have a name for it, which is this idea that, at Basecamp, decisions are not made by
consensus or by voting. People will gather around
and we’ll talk about it. People will have input. But then somebody makes the decision. – Is it like product owner
or whoever’s in charge? – Whoever’s in charge of that thing. It doesn’t matter what rank or role or any of that stuff,
like whoever’s in charge of that thing, depends on the project, but there’s always one
person whose job it is to make a decision and
consider and then it’s everyone else’s job to agree and commit or disagree and commit. And disagree and commit, going like, I don’t agree but I’m in. Cause you gotta get in
line and then do the work. Something else might come down the road or someone else disagrees with you and you’re gonna count on them. But the amount of effort that’s required to get everyone to agree on something is often not well spent. You’re better off, of course, listening. Having a vigorous debate and then going, okay here’s what we’re gonna do. And then going. So that’s the idea behind
disagree and commit. David and I do this with
each other occasionally. We’ll be battling and
it’s like you know what, David you want this one more than I do, so I don’t think it’s the right decision but let’s do it, I’m cool with that. And it’s kind of like two friends going out for lunch, like you got this one
I’ll get the next one. You don’t know how it all evens out but it kind of evens out in the end. It sort of similar to that as well. – I think you and David
are doing a good job. You’re writing about work in
a way that nobody else is, it’s inspirational and meaningful and I just went and tried
to buy a few other books to give as gifts and they were sold out. Help me with that. – To get more copies of this? – Yeah, more copies of it. – Our publisher under printed the book– – They sandbagged you, they didn’t think you gonna be as popular– – It was interesting, I’m
happy to talk about it. It was weird, because
we got a big advance. And so when you get a big advance you expect that they need
to sell a lot of books to make the money back. And that they would expect
it’s gonna be a popular book. And they didn’t print enough. And it wasn’t like we sold, they printed about 14,000 copies. Rework though, which was
done almost 10 years ago, they printed 35,000 copies. And for some reason they
printed 14,000 for this one. Okay fine, whatever. – Somebody disagreed and committed. – Yes, fine, whatever, right. But the thing that was bad about it was we couldn’t get a
reprint for about a month. That’s what, so the momentum was like, we sold out on Amazon in five days, thousands of copies,
and then out of stock, shipping like two to four weeks, that sucked, but they just
printed another 15,000 or something so they’re
back in stock at Amazon and all the booksellers now. You’ll find em on the shelves again now. – Just a little blip. – A little blip, it sucked
because it kind of took the momentum out of it for a little bit. But the book is back in
stock everywhere now. – I love giving gifts. – You can get an audio book, by the way. Which is a way– – I love giving books as
gifts and I’ve been a big giver of Rework for a long time. It Doesn’t Have to be
Crazy Work as a new gift. Thank you so much for writing it. Thank you for being a
pioneer in future work and all the things you’ve called out here and thanks for being a guest on the show. – Aw, man it was really
fun, thanks for having me. – Really appreciate it. For the folks at home
again, here’s one more look at the book, pick up a copy. I’m Chase, this has been Jason and thanks a lot, have a great day. Hopefully see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

What to Do When You Can’t Choose Between Two Business Ideas


It was so aggressive. You liked it though. A little bit.  
Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be if you want to create
a business and life you love. And I think you do. Now, if you are a multipassionate entrepreneur
who is torn between two business ideas, this episode is for you. Today’s question comes from Tiffany who
writes:  
“Hi, Marie. Your videos have truly kept me afloat and
motivated. Like you, I consider myself a multipassionate
entrepreneur. I’m a full time bridal designer just getting
my company off the ground. In addition to my bridal business, I love
self care and motivating others. Sometimes I feel like I have too many passions
and I always hit a wall not knowing what my next steps are. I’d love to know: how can I focus on building
my bridal business and still build a platform for my personal self care/motivation business
as well? Thanks so much, Tiffany.”  
Tiffany, I love your question. And you are so not alone in this struggle,
girl. Most creatives have more than one thing they
want to focus on and it always creates some challenges. Now, there’s no one size fits all answer
to this question, and in order to find the best path ahead for you, the first thing you’ve
got to do is get really clear on your goals – both in the short term and the long term.  
So for instance, if fast growth and a greater chance of higher revenue more quickly are
really important to you right now, focus on just one business. I mean, give your everything to that business
and trust that you can always start a second business or you can transition to another
business a little further down the road.  
Now, on the other hand, if you’re like me and you must, must, must do more than one
thing because both these ideas are just burning a hole right through your heart, know that
you can do that but there are consequences. Now, the positive ones include being able
to strengthen different skills and learn more about what you like and what you don’t like. But on the downside, you need to be okay with
growing each business perhaps a little more slowly, likely making less money, and you’ve
got to embrace the fact that your life will probably be a little more messy and chaotic.  
Now, here’s an analogy that might help you decide. Let’s think about this in terms of one of
my favorite topics: food. You can either have one main dish business
or a main dish business with a little side dish business.  
Now, each of them has their pros and cons. So, for example, if you choose just one main
dish business you keep things really simple. Right? I mean, everything is on one plate and you
always know your next steps or your next bite. It allows you to really focus. You can really dig in and most of the time
you can move a lot faster. You do run the risk of a little bit of boredom
though. Now, if you want a main dish and a side dish
business, then first you need to decide which business is going to be the main and which
is going to be the side. Next thing, you’ve got to realize you’re
always going to be going back and forth between the two plates and the meal will likely take
a lot longer.  
So it’s often more fun when you’ve got two dishes because there’s variety, but
you never know. You might wind up liking a side dish more
than your main dish.  
Are you still working on that main business?  
You know what? I’m done.  
Would you like it to go?  
Nah. Not really feeling it.  
Was there something wrong with it?  
You know, it was fine. I’m just really loving this side business. You know, can I get this one as an entree?  
Certainly. Everybody is loving their side business.  
The bottom line, you have a menu of really great choices in front of you. And all of them, quite frankly, can be satisfying
and fulfilling in their own way. Now, the secret to making the best choice
is to really step back, get ultra clear on what you most want in your heart both in the
short term and the long term, and then make a choice and have total faith that you are
on the perfect path for you.  
And Tiffany, so you know, I actually have a lot more to say on this topic. I created specific exercises and tools and
worksheets especially for us multipassionate muffins. It’s all in an online program called Start
The Right Business.  
And the thing that I love most about this program that I haven’t seen anywhere else
is that it helps you try on different futures and get crystal clear about your goals and
your values and your unique vision so you can bring it to life through a custom-designed
business that’s perfect for your strengths and for the kind of life that you most want
to have. You should really go check it out. It is beyond powerful and it’s literally
guaranteed to help. You can learn more at StartTheRightBusiness.com.  
Now, let’s land this plane on a Tweetable.  
“The first step to a successful business is getting clear on how you define success.”  
And that was my A to your Q, Tiffany. I really do hope it helps. Now I would love to hear from you. Have you ever felt torn between two businesses
or two careers? Are you going through that right now?  So I want to know. If you are going through that right now, what’s
your biggest takeaway from this particular episode? And if you’ve been there and done that,
what wisdom can you share with Tiffany and everyone else based on your experience? Leave a comment below and let everybody know.  
Now, as always, the very best conversations happen after the episode at MarieForleo.com,
so go there and leave a comment now. Once you’re there, be sure to subscribe
to our email list and become an MF Insider. You want to be one because you’re going
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Stay on your game and keep going for your dreams because the world needs that special
gift that only you have. Thank you so much for watching and I’ll
catch you next time on MarieTV.  
Have you been thinking about starting your own business? Is fear, confusion, or overwhelm slowing you
down? We can fast track your growth and save you
years of expensive trial and error. Get the guidance you need to make your dream
business come to life, guaranteed. Learn more at StartTheRightBusiness.com.  
No. We don’t. We don’t get Marie giggly.  
Zach, put your farts back in your butt.  
I wanna go Hulk them and go like, “I crush you all.”  
Does anyone know what a delicate flower I am?

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Why work doesn’t happen at work | Jason Fried


So I’m going to talk about work; specifically, why people can’t
seem to get work done at work, which is a problem we all kind of have. But let’s sort of start at the beginning. So, we have companies
and non-profits and charities and all these groups that have
employees or volunteers of some sort. And they expect these people
who work for them to do great work — I would hope, at least. At least good work, hopefully,
at least it’s good work — hopefully great work. And so what they typically
do is they decide that all these people need to come
together in one place to do that work. So a company, or a charity,
or an organization of any kind, unless you’re working in Africa,
if you’re really lucky to do that — most people have to go
to an office every day. And so these companies, they build offices. They go out and they buy a building,
or they rent a building, or they lease some space, and they fill this space with stuff. They fill it with tables, or desks, chairs, computer equipment, software, Internet access, maybe a fridge, maybe a few other things, and they expect their employees,
or their volunteers, to come to that location
every day to do great work. It seems like it’s perfectly
reasonable to ask that. However, if you actually talk to people and even question yourself,
and you ask yourself, where do you really want to go when you
really need to get something done? You’ll find out that people don’t say
what businesses think they would say. If you ask people the question: Where do you need to go
when you need to get something done? Typically, you get three different
kinds of answers. One is kind of a place
or a location or a room. Another one is a moving object, and a third is a time. So here are some examples. I’ve been asking people this question
for about 10 years: “Where do you go when you
really need to get something done?” I’ll hear things like, the porch,
the deck, the kitchen. I’ll hear things like
an extra room in the house, the basement, the coffee shop, the library. And then you’ll hear
things like the train, a plane, a car — so, the commute. And then you’ll hear people say, “Well, it doesn’t really
matter where I am, as long as it’s early in the morning
or late at night or on the weekends.” You almost never hear
someone say, “The office.” But businesses are spending all this money
on this place called the office, and they’re making people
go to it all the time, yet people don’t do work in the office. What is that about? (Laughter) Why is that? Why is that happening? And what you find out is, if you dig a little bit deeper,
you find out that people — this is what happens: People go to work, and they’re basically
trading in their work day for a series of “work moments” —
that’s what happens at the office. You don’t have a work day anymore.
You have work moments. It’s like the front door
of the office is like a Cuisinart, and you walk in and your day
is shredded to bits, because you have 15 minutes here,
30 minutes there, and something else happens,
you’re pulled off your work, then you have 20 minutes, then it’s lunch,
then you have something else to do … Then you’ve got 15 minutes, and someone
pulls you aside and asks you a question, and before you know it, it’s 5 p.m., and you look back on the day, and you realize that you
didn’t get anything done. We’ve all been through this. We probably went through it yesterday
or the day before, or the day before that. You look back on your day, and you’re like,
“I got nothing done today. I was at work. I sat at my desk.
I used my expensive computer. I used the software they told me to use. I went to these meetings
I was asked to go to. I did these conference calls.
I did all this stuff. But I didn’t actually do anything. I just did tasks. I didn’t actually get
meaningful work done.” And what you find is that,
especially with creative people — designers, programmers,
writers, engineers, thinkers — that people really need long stretches
of uninterrupted time to get something done. You cannot ask somebody
to be creative in 15 minutes and really think about a problem. You might have a quick idea, but to be in deep thought about a problem
and really consider a problem carefully, you need long stretches
of uninterrupted time. And even though the work day
is typically eight hours, how many people here have ever had
eight hours to themselves at the office? How about seven hours? Six? Five? Four? When’s the last time you had
three hours to yourself at the office? Two hours? One, maybe? Very, very few people actually have long stretches of uninterrupted
time at an office. And this is why people
choose to do work at home, or they might go to the office, but they might go to the office
really early in the day, or late at night when no one’s around, or they stick around
after everyone’s left, or go in on the weekends, or they get work done on the plane,
in the car or in the train, because there are no distractions. Now there are different
kinds of distractions, but not the really bad distractions,
which I’ll talk about in a minute. And this whole phenomenon of having
short bursts of time to get things done reminds me of another thing
that doesn’t work when you’re interrupted, and that is sleep. I think that sleep and work
are very closely related — not because you can work while you’re
sleeping and sleep while you’re working. That’s not really what I mean. I’m talking specifically about the fact
that sleep and work are phase-based, or stage-based, events. Sleep is about sleep phases, or stages —
some people call them different things. There are five of them, and in order
to get to the really deep ones, the meaningful ones,
you have to go through the early ones. If you’re interrupted while you’re
going through the early ones — if someone bumps you in bed,
or there’s a sound, or whatever happens — you don’t just pick up where you left off. If you’re interrupted and woken up, you have to start again. So you have to go back
a few phases and start again. And what ends up happening —
you might have days like this where you wake up at eight or seven
in the morning, or whenever you get up, and you’re like,
“I didn’t sleep very well. I did the sleep thing —
I went to bed, I laid down, but I didn’t really sleep.” People say you go “to” sleep, but you don’t go to sleep,
you go towards sleep; it takes a while. You’ve got to go through phases and stuff, and if you’re interrupted,
you don’t sleep well. So does anyone here
expect someone to sleep well if they’re interrupted all night? I don’t think anyone would say yes. Why do we expect people to work well if they’re being interrupted
all day at the office? How can we possibly expect
people to do their job if they go to the office
and are interrupted? That doesn’t really seem
like it makes a lot of sense, to me. So what are the interruptions that happen
at the office but not at other places? Because in other places, you can have
interruptions like the TV, or you could go for a walk,
or there’s a fridge downstairs, or you’ve got your own couch,
or whatever you want to do. If you talk to certain managers,
they’ll tell you that they don’t want
their employees to work at home because of these distractions. They’ll sometimes also say, “If I can’t see the person,
how do I know they’re working?” which is ridiculous, but that’s one
of the excuses that managers give. And I’m one of these managers.
I understand. I know how this goes. We all have to improve
on this sort of thing. But oftentimes they’ll cite distractions: “I can’t let someone work at home. They’ll watch TV, or do this other thing.” It turns out those aren’t
the things that are distracting, Because those are voluntary distractions. You decide when you want
to be distracted by the TV, when you want to turn something on, or when you want to go
downstairs or go for a walk. At the office, most of the interruptions and distractions that really cause people not
to get work done are involuntary. So let’s go through a couple of those. Now, managers and bosses
will often have you think that the real distractions at work are things like Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and other websites, and in fact, they’ll go so far
as to actually ban these sites at work. Some of you may work at places
where you can’t get to certain sites. I mean, is this China?
What the hell is going on here? You can’t go to a website at work,
and that’s the problem? That’s why people aren’t
getting work done, because they’re on Facebook and Twitter? That’s kind of ridiculous.
It’s a total decoy. Today’s Facebook and Twitter and YouTube, these things are just
modern-day smoke breaks. No one cared about letting people take
a smoke break for 15 minutes 10 years ago, so why does anyone care
if someone goes to Facebook or Twitter or YouTube here and there? Those aren’t the real
problems in the office. The real problems are
what I like to call the M&Ms, the Managers and the Meetings. Those are the real problems
in the modern office today. And this is why
things don’t get done at work, it’s because of the M&Ms. Now what’s interesting is, if you listen to all the places
that people talk about doing work, like at home, in the car, on a plane,
late at night, or early in the morning, you don’t find managers and meetings. You find a lot of other distractions,
but not managers and meetings. So these are the things
that you don’t find elsewhere, but you do find at the office. And managers are basically people
whose job it is to interrupt people. That’s pretty much what managers are for.
They’re for interrupting people. They don’t really do the work, so they
make sure everyone else is doing work, which is an interruption. We have lots of managers in the world now,
and a lot of people in the world, and a lot of interruptions
by these managers. They have to check in:
“Hey, how’s it going? Show me what’s up.” This sort of thing. They keep interrupting you
at the wrong time, while you’re actually trying to do
something they’re paying you to do, they tend to interrupt you. That’s kind of bad. But what’s even worse is the thing
that managers do most of all, which is call meetings. And meetings are just toxic, terrible, poisonous things during the day at work. (Laughter) We all know this to be true, and you would never see a spontaneous
meeting called by employees. It doesn’t work that way. The manager calls the meeting so the employees can all come together, and it’s an incredibly disruptive
thing to do to people — to say, “Hey look, we’re going to bring 10 people
together right now and have a meeting. I don’t care what you’re doing, you’ve got to stop doing it,
so you can have this meeting.” I mean, what are the chances
that all 10 people are ready to stop? What if they’re thinking about something
important, or doing important work? All of a sudden you tell them they have
to stop doing that to do something else. So they go into a meeting room,
they get together, and they talk about stuff
that doesn’t really matter, usually. Because meetings aren’t work. Meetings are places to go
to talk about things you’re supposed to be doing later. But meetings also procreate. So one meeting tends
to lead to another meeting, which leads to another meeting. There’s often too many people
in the meetings, and they’re very, very expensive
to the organization. Companies often think of a one-hour
meeting as a one-hour meeting, but that’s not true,
unless there’s only one person. If there are 10 people, it’s a 10-hour
meeting, not a one-hour meeting. It’s 10 hours of productivity taken
from the rest of the organization to have this one-hour meeting,
which probably should have been handled by two or three people
talking for a few minutes. But instead, there’s a long
scheduled meeting, because meetings are scheduled
the way software works, which is in increments of 15 minutes,
or 30 minutes, or an hour. You don’t schedule an eight-hour meeting
with Outlook; you can’t. You can go 15 minutes or 30 minutes
or 45 minutes or an hour. And so we tend to fill these times up when things should go really quickly. So meetings and managers are
two major problems in businesses today, especially at offices. These things don’t exist
outside of the office. So I have some suggestions
to remedy the situation. What can managers do — enlightened managers, hopefully — what can they do to make the office
a better place for people to work, so it’s not the last resort,
but it’s the first resort, so that people start to say, “When I really want to get stuff done,
I go to the office.” Because the offices are well-equipped; everything is there
for them to do the work. But they don’t want to go there right
now, so how do we change that? I have three suggestions
to share with you. I have about three minutes,
so that’ll fit perfectly. We’ve all heard
of the Casual Friday thing. I don’t know if people still do that. But how about “No-talk Thursdays?” (Laughter) Pick one Thursday once a month, and cut it in half, just the afternoon —
I’ll make it easy for you. So just the afternoon, one Thursday. First Thursday of the month,
just the afternoon, nobody in the office
can talk to each other. Just silence, that’s it. And what you’ll find is that a tremendous amount
of work gets done when no one talks to each other. This is when people
actually get stuff done, is when no one’s bothering them
or interrupting them. Giving someone four hours
of uninterrupted time is the best gift you can
give anybody at work. It’s better than a computer, better than a new monitor,
better than new software, or whatever people typically use. Giving them four hours
of quiet time at the office is going to be incredibly valuable. If you try that, I think you’ll agree,
and hopefully you can do it more often. So maybe it’s every other week, or every week, once a week, afternoons no one can talk to each other. That’s something that you’ll find
will really, really work. Another thing you can try, is switching from active
communication and collaboration, which is like face-to-face stuff —
tapping people on the shoulder, saying hi to them, having meetings, and replace that with more
passive models of communication, using things like email
and instant messaging, or collaboration products,
things like that. Now some people might say
email is really distracting, I.M. is really distracting, and these
other things are really distracting, but they’re distracting at a time
of your own choice and your own choosing. You can quit the email app;
you can’t quit your boss. You can quit I.M.; you can’t hide your manager. You can put these things away, and then you can be interrupted
on your own schedule, at your own time, when you’re available,
when you’re ready to go again. Because work, like sleep,
happens in phases. So you’ll be going up, doing some work, and then you’ll come down from that work, and then maybe it’s time
to check that email or I.M. There are very, very few things
that are that urgent, that need to happen, that need
to be answered right this second. So if you’re a manager, start encouraging people to use
more things like I.M. and email and other things that someone can put away and then get back to you
on their own schedule. And the last suggestion I have is that, if you do have a meeting coming up, if you have the power, just cancel it. Just cancel that next meeting. (Laughter) Today’s Friday, usually people
have meetings on Monday. Just don’t have it. I don’t mean move it; I mean just erase it
from memory, it’s gone. And you’ll find out that everything
will be just fine. All these discussions and decisions
you thought you had to make at this one time at 9 a.m. on Monday, just forget about them,
and things will be fine. People will have a more open morning,
they can actually think. You’ll find out all these things
you thought you had to do, you don’t actually have to do. So those are just three quick suggestions
I wanted to give you guys to think about. I hope that some of these ideas
were at least provocative enough for managers and bosses
and business owners and organizers and people
who are in charge of other people, to think about laying off a little bit, and giving people more time
to get work done. I think it’ll all pay off in the end. So, thanks for listening. (Applause)

How generational stereotypes hold us back at work | Leah Georges


Translator: Ivana Korom
Reviewer: Krystian Aparta So, for the first time
in America’s modern history, we have five generations
interacting at work. The veterans, born between 1922 and 1943, are known as the Greatest Generation,
the matures, the silents. They’re known for their self-sacrifice, respect for authority
and work as its own reward. The boomers came shortly after,
born between 1944 and 1960. This is a generation
characterized by hard work. In fact, we can thank this generation
for the term “workaholic.” They appreciate competition,
they love effective communication. And they’re thinking towards retirement,
if they haven’t retired already. Generation X is known
as the lost generation the latchkey generation,
born between 1961 and 1980. This is the smallest generation, sandwiched between boomers
and the big millennials. More parents were divorced
in this generation than any generation prior. They also were the first generation
to tell us about work-life balance, and the first to really
ask for that in the workplace. And then millennials — you know,
the everybody-gets-a-ribbon generation — born between 1981 and 2000. Never knew a time where technology
wasn’t present in the home. They’re incredibly pragmatic,
they’re hopeful and they’re determined. They think they’re going
to change the world, in fact, I believe they’re going to do it. They might be a little bit
idealistic sometimes, but in just the last several years, we’ve seen millennials
overtake Generation X to be the most represented
generation in the workforce. In fact, more than one in three people
in the United States labor force is a millennial. And soon to join us there,
Generation Z, born since 2000, our high school interns
or soon to be high school graduates. Now, if you open any internet browser, look at Amazon, search any of your favorite
search engines, you might assume there’s a literal war
in the workplace, right? We see blog topics like “Seventeen reasons why millennials
are the worst generation.” And “Why baby boomers
have ruined it for everybody.” Or “Bridging the great
generational divide.” It’s like turning into this
“West Side Story,” like, boomers come in one door, millennials come in
another door, the lobby, they just fight with each other all day,
complain, go home, do the same, come back to work, right? Well, so what if I told you
these generations may not exist? I’ve been spending some time
thinking about this and researching this, and fellow researchers and I
aren’t exactly sure that these generations are real. And in fact, if we can agree
that these groups even exist, we certainly don’t agree
who belongs in them. And they span something like 20 years. So at whatever point in history, a one-year-old and a 20-year-old
are said to share the same value system, to want the same things at work, to have the same stereotypes
working for and against them. And in fact, different areas of the world
define these generations differently. So we can’t even compare generations
across various areas of the world. And these stereotypes
about each generation have, in a lot of ways,
created this self-fulfilling prophecy, that people begin to act
as if they’re part of that generation because we’ve said out loud
that generation is real. I’m not so sure that it is. And in fact, this idea of generations has become deeply embedded
in United States culture. When we talk generations, people know exactly
what we’re talking about. In fact, people have
a lot of thoughts and feelings about each of these generations. And I’ll tell you how I know this. I did the thing that every red-blooded American
and pre-tenure academic does when they have a question. I Googled some stuff. And this is what I learned. Google is based on algorithms, and they provide you
with commonly searched terms, or suggested hits, based
on what other people are searching surrounding the same topic. And it gave me a really good sense
of what people think about each of these generations. Take a look. I learned that baby boomers
are conservative, that Americans think they’re stupid. The worst generation, they’re angry, apparently they’re racist
and they’re so important. Looking at Generation X, I learned Generation X is a cynical group, they’re angry, they’re known as the lost
generation — we know this; they’re the smallest generation. Apparently, they’re stupid too. (Laughter) And mostly, they’re frustrated
with baby boomers. Alright, millennials,
this is what I learned about us. So, we’re obsessed with food. (Laughter) We’re also stupid, ah! We’re lazy, we’re sensitive, we’re fired, we’re also hated,
and we think we’re important. And perhaps the most terrifying
search result on the internet — Generation Z is screwed. (Laughter) OK, so, for five years,
I’ve been talking to leaders and followers across a wide variety of organizations. And this is what I’ve come to realize. Generations haven’t become
part of the conversation — generations have become
the conversation at work. What I’ve learned is that we’re working under the assumption
that those Google results are true. And so, what I think
is that organizations are now desperate to figure out how to “manage”
the multigenerational workplace. “Manage” it. We manage all sorts of things. We’re preparing for this
wave of millennials to come to work. So we prepare for hurricanes, right? We prepare to take the MCAT,
we prepare for natural disasters. Why are we preparing
for 23-year-olds to come to work? (Laughter) I’ve talked to these organizations, and I’ve heard amazing things
that they’re doing to create a workspace
for everybody to get along and to have autonomy
and to feel like they’re thriving. But I’ve also heard some
really incredibly harebrained ideas about how to navigate
the multigenerational workplace. Are you ready? This is what I saw. I visited an organization, and they adopted this idea
that if you can see it, you can be it. A really important concept. But I think they blew it. The put pictures on the walls
of the ideal multigenerational workplace, because if you can see it, you can be it. (Laughter) Or like this one. (Laughter) Like, I don’t even want to work here. (Laughter) You don’t get to wear
color here, apparently, and HR seriously has problems
with people jumping in heels, I promise you that, OK? I talked to an organization
who recently decided against putting a ball pit
in the break room because that’s how you retain millennials. We’re 30, not three. (Laughter) And in fact, I know a young,
at the time, millennial, who was told that if she wanted
people to take her seriously, just because she was a millennial,
she would have to do this — wear shoulder pads. Yes. People younger than her and older than her
wouldn’t take her seriously unless she wore shoulder pads. Straight-out-of-the-80s, can’t-even-buy-them-anywhere
shoulder pads. This young woman had two graduate degrees. This young woman was me. And this is the best we came up with? How to navigate the multigenerational
workplace … is shoulder pads? (Laughter) So, this is also what I’ve learned
talking to organizations that employ a wide range
of people of various ages. We are so much more similar
than we are different. And we’re hearing this consistently. People want work that matters,
they want flexibility, they want support, they want appreciation, they want better coffee. But none of these things
are tied to a generation. Now, sure, we see small differences
in what people want. We know 20-year-olds and 60-year-olds
go home and do different things. They have different values. At least when it comes
to things happening outside of work. But I think what’s happened is that this focus
on generational cohorts, these groups of people, has created a space where we just forgot
that people are people. And to know who they really are,
who we really work with, we have to figure out
how to better navigate this multigenerational workplace than ball pits. Call me one of those idealist millennials,
but I think we can get there. And I don’t think the idea
is too terribly difficult. What if we radically, simply, not easily, meet people where they are? Individualize our approach. I’ve never met a generation. I’ve had a lot of conversations with people who happened to identify
with a specific generational cohort. I know that 80-year-olds text message and 23-year-olds crochet blankets. None of these things are stereotypical
of that generation, right? Nilofer Merchant —
she’s a thought leader in innovation — she tells us we have to meet people
in their onlyness, that is, that spot in the world
where only we stand, as a function of our unique history,
our experiences and our hopes. But this requires
flexibility and curiosity. And what happens when we meet
people in their onlyness, only the spot in the world
that they stand, we learn that that boomer who is just
acting “angry” at work all the time is scared. Because he’s worked every day
since he was 16 years old, and on a Monday,
sooner than he can imagine, he’ll never go to work again. He’s got plans. It’s going to take like a week and a half to do all the things
on that retirement list. But then what? What if we give a little bit of grace to the person that might be
a little scared? Or that Generation X-er who has four drop-offs,
three kids, two hands, and is just trying to keep
the wheels on the bus. Sure, maybe she’s a little aloof at work. Maybe she’s a little independent,
maybe she’s exhausted. Or that millennial who asks for a raise after two months
because they’re “entitled?” Well, maybe it’s because
that generation has more debt than any generation before them,
coming out of college, and they just need the money to keep going, to pay rent. And suddenly, when you meet people
in their onlyness, that spot in the world only they stand, we’re not talking
about a generation anymore. We’re talking about Jim or Jen or Candice. And so here’s my challenge to us. Pick a person, just one,
and explore their onlyness. And then learn. And then in the moments
where it’s appropriate, teach. And figure out what they bring to work
that no one else can bring to work, because that’s what makes work richer. And then do it again. And do it again. And then some day, we’re not
working with generations anymore. We’re working with people. And so to really understand the beauty
of the multigenerational workplace, I think we just have to meet
people where they are. And that doesn’t require
that we unpack and live there with them. But we might find, at least on occasion,
it’s a beautiful place to visit. And so I think there’s just no need to argue about which generation
is the most angry or the most entitled
or the most so obsessed with food. We all come to the classroom,
to work, back to our homes, a little bit tired and a little bit
tattered sometimes. Maybe let’s just do our best
to humbly meet people where they are, how they show up that day, generation and all. And in those moments where it can feel a little bit
like intergenerational warfare, I think we can at least all agree that shoulder pads aren’t the solution. (Laughter) Thank you. (Applause)

The Lie Behind Working Hard For Success | Vishen Lakhiani


Do you believe that hard work is what it
takes to be successful? I know this sounds bad,
but I think it’s one of the most bullishit ideas that’s emerging in the culturescape
today. Hard work has very, very, very little to do with success.
But do this, if you just open up Instagram and follow most entrepreneurial channels
on Instagram there’s this bullshit simplistic motivational pictures that you
see consistently about working 100-hour weeks, about working harder than
the competition. I mean, check this one out. This one is apparently
a quote from Elon Musk that says, “Work like hell. I mean,
you just have to put in 80 to 100 hours every week. This improves the odds of
success.” The problem is it doesn’t. You see, science shows that after around
50 hours of productive time, your productivity goes down.
But what happens is, if you continue pushing yourself,
often due to lack of sleep, due to lack of taking care of your health,
you have failed relationships. You have failed social connections.
You have sleep deprivation which is reducing your cognitive abilities,
which means your performance starts depreciating. You start aging more.
And so, this whole idea of hard work as a means to success is one of the most dumb
ideas that entrepreneurs are putting out. I used to believe it and it ruined me and
it slowed down my growth. Now, there’s an alternate idea,
and if you’ve read Michael Singer’s book, “The Surrender Experiment” he’s at the
whole other end of that spectrum. In “The Surrender Experiment”
Michael Singer, he, by the way, is the guy who also wrote
“The Untethered Soul” which is a New York Times bestseller,
but I prefer his book “The Surrender Experiment.”
He built a billion-dollar company through what he calls “The Art of
Surrender,” regular meditation, getting into flow.
So, what is going on here? How do you have these two opposing
thoughts from people who are building massive businesses, who are massively
productive, and one is about hard work and one is about surrender. Now,
I was thinking about this a lot for the last five years because this matters to
me. As an entrepreneur, I want to be able to get a lot done but I
don’t want to break myself doing it. And what I realized,
and I shared some of this in my book, “The Code of the Extraordinary Mind”
is that it’s not binary. It’s not about hard work nor is it about
surrender. It’s not binary rather there is a layering to it. In my theory,
I suggest that there are four different levels of consciousness and if you’re at
the first level of consciousness, you need hard work. But very rapidly you
can move to the next level of consciousness and at the secondary
level of consciousness you start learning particular tools that allow you to do more
with less work. Now, you want to move up. Now, there’s a third level of
consciousness which a lot of people don’t even know exists. At that third level of
consciousness, your goals no longer even become important. At that third level of
consciousness, you’re tapped into something else.
And there’s a fourth level of consciousness which is where some of
the most remarkable people in the world I’ve seen play at and they just seem
blessed by luck and they are not breaking themselves with hard work. So. in short,
this binary idea, hard work versus surrender is not really binary.
You can flip it around. And what you need to do depends on what of
the four levels of consciousness you’re currently operating on. So,
if you find this idea fascinating, if you’ve wondered about this,
this hard work idea as I have, check out this master class I’m doing.
It’s about an hour and 10 minutes that I go deep into these theories and I share
with you the four levels of consciousness and the protocols and the tools that
I’ve been bringing in in these four levels to maximize my impact in the world and I
think you might find this really interesting. So, as you guys know,
I’m an ardent consciousness hacker from teaching meditation for five years to
launching meditation apps to putting myself through a lot of different systems
for playing with my consciousness. I’ve tried to figure out how to access
altered states to maximize productivity. And really, this whole thing about hard
work guys is rubbish. It is absolute rubbish.
It’s a bullshit idea that needs to be swept into the dustbin of history because
it only applies to people who are operating at the most basic level of state
awareness. So, anyway, check out this master class if you find
this idea interesting. I’d love to know your thoughts and I’d
love to see what you think.

Life Update: Self-Employed, Mindset, and Miscarriage (TPL 009)


Welcome to The Productive Life. I am excited to be doing a little bit
of a different podcast than usual. We’re going to be talking about some
updates going on in my life and business that I want to share with you guys. Welcome to The Productive Life
podcast hosted by me, Megan Minns. This is the podcast for entrepreneurs
who want to be more productive in their business and their personal life.
Because as a business owner, your business and personal life are
connected and we can’t talk about one without talking about the other.
Each week you’ll learn about productivity, organization, personal development,
self care, business strategies and more. And now let’s get started. I’m recording this episode
from my home office in Houston. It’s getting dark outside.
It’s seven o’clock. I’ve got a glass of red wine and y’all, I don’t have a outline for this
episode because it’s a bit more casual. It’s a bit of a different type of episode
then I’ve done so far and it’s really a update. There has been a lot happening behind the
scenes since I started the podcast and I just want to give you guys a little
transparent update across all fronts. So business,
personal and everything else. So just go ahead and pour yourself
a glass of whatever you like, your favorite tea, your favorite
cocktail, a glass of wine, a cup of coffee and let’s catch up.
While there has been a lot going on, I have to kick this off with just
the biggest update of them all. So as you know, if you have been listening
since the beginning of the podcast, I have been working full time for
one of my long time friends, Mariah, and we’ve been working together
since February of 2018 full time. I’ve been actually working with her in
different capacities since summer of 2015 if you can believe it. And it has
been such an incredible journey. I’ve learned so much the past year and
several months working full time with her,
helping her build her business, and the biggest change has been going
on is that as of the week that this episode goes live,
I am no longer an employee at her company. I am actually self employed again. I was self employed from November, 2015 up until February of 2018 so
I’ve been self employed at before, and really just the past year and few
months I was a fulltime employee and started side hustling again while
growing my business on the side. Now before you make any assumptions, I feel like anytime people
do big updates like this, there’s a lot of assumptions
I can come into play. You think there’s big drama or Mariah
and I aren’t friends anymore or anything like that and it couldn’t
be farther from the truth. Mariah and I are still really,
really good friends. We’re still going to be
collaborating together. You better believe I’m going to get her
on this podcast sometime soon and it’s really not anything dramatic. So if you’re looking
for drama or some tea, this isn’t it and instead it’s really
just been so great to go from having a client and contractor relationship to an
employee and boss relationship and back to being really friends who are business
besties who are supporting each other and building each other up and helping
each other achieve our respective dreams. So that is the biggest
change has been going on. And this has actually been something
that Mariah I have been talking about for several months. It’s been going on behind the scenes
super intentionally and slowly as we make sure that the company has a smooth
transition as well as Mariah’s clients. And y’all, it has been such an incredible
journey to go through. I think anytime that a side hustler is
leaving or really anyone you’re leaving a job,
it can feel really mixed. There’s some excitement for the next step,
but there’s also a lot of uncertainty. There’s doubts, there’s fears, there’s
anxieties, there’s a lot of unknown. And especially when you’re leaving
a job to go be self employed, there is a ton of unknown and fear
and anxiety kind of wrapped up in that decision. But it has been an incredible, I like,
I don’t even have the words for it, which is unfortunate since this
is a podcast, so I’ll work on it. But it has been an incredible experience
to go through this with Mariah, for us to have really honest and open
and supportive conversations with each other on how we can each achieve what
we’re trying to achieve and how we can help one another get there
and what changes need to
happen for us to achieve our goals. So it is definitely a partying that
is friendly with no drama and I am so excited for her and her company and to
continue to support them and cheer them on and work with them in a different
kind of way instead of as an employee but more of like a friend and a partner. So yeah, I’m self employed
again, you guys. So I, it doesn’t mean I won’t
talk about side hustling, I have been doing it for a little over a
year. I did it for a long time back in, you know,
2012 to 2015. So I still feel like I have a
lot to say about side hustling, but I do want you guys to know that
I’m not a side hustler anymore. I am full time self employed, working on my business and this is my,
my job again. And it’s crazy because wow, it feels like I forgot how
to do it in a way, you know, you go from having really limited time
and feeling like you just have the smallest amount of time to get things
done to suddenly having all the time in the world. And that’s a joy and uh, and something
I’m so excited about and grateful for, but new challenges come up with that. If you’re a self employed or a full time
business owner, you felt it too. Um, I’ve felt it before the first time I
made this transition that it is a change. You’re in total control of your time,
which is what I love, and I’m really looking for and
looking forward to leaning into, but it is a total shift. So I’m excited
to share this journey with you guys. You will notice that I’m going
to be talking about this, um, the lens that we’re talking
through entrepreneurship
might shift a little bit to be more focused on the
full time entrepreneur. I’ll still be making sure that everything
is relevant to side hustlers and pulling on some experts who are really
great with side hustling at tips and tricks. But I’m no longer a side hustler.
So what does this mean for my business? So Megan Minns is now full time.
I’m all in. I’m 100%, and honestly I have
been since I started the podcast. It’s been a pretty intense few months,
especially the month of April. It’s been very intense. It’s been 100% all in at my
full time job like I have been. But really wrapping up big, big projects and major transitions and
then also ramping up my business and establishing new revenue streams, creating new products and creating
podcast episodes consistently and also growing a team.
As of the time of this recording, I currently have two
contractors that I work with. I have my virtual assistant slash
online business manager, Bev, who is such a good friend of mine and
I’m so excited that she’s helping me out. She’s been such a cheerleader
and a supporter through
this whole journey really since the beginning of 2019. I mean
if not before, we’ve been friends, but really specifically she’s been
cheering me on and I’m so grateful for her support and in the business and her
helping me really think big and step into some big shoes and big dreams that I have
that used to intimidate me and now I’m just excited. But Bev helps me with my inbox.
So if you ever email me, you know, you probably heard back from Bev.
She’s so great at that. She’s helping me and create project plans. She’s helping me hit my
goals and strategize how I’m
going to do that and she is helping me mainly right now as of the
time of this recording with a ton of content help. So I record the podcast episode and then
she takes it off my hands from there. So she passes it onto our podcast editor,
which I’ll talk about in a second. And then she makes the blog post,
she uploads it everywhere. She creates the descriptions based on
the SEO keywords I give her and the title is I give her and she creates the
graphics in Canva and that has been her biggest time commitment lately. But I’m excited that as I step
into this role being full time, fully self employed again, it’s also when bev is kind of
stepping up into new things too. So I’m really excited to see how this
grows and I’ll keep you guys updated as the team shifts and evolves how people
are helping me, how I’m outsourcing, how I’m delegating and anything else
like that you guys are interested in, feel free to ask me and I can
create some content around that. And then like I mentioned, my second
contractor currently is a podcast editor. So I was editing a lot of the podcasts
myself and I’m happy with the quality. I know it wasn’t the best quality audio,
but I’m not dissatisfied with it. But really it got down to the point of
just time and how I liked spending my time and where I was a bottleneck because
I was definitely a bottleneck with the editing. I have no problem sitting down and
recording like four episodes back to back, especially when I’m in
a good state of mind. But when it came to the editing, I
was so slow. I kept putting it off. It isn’t a process that
I truly enjoy and um, I just realized that it was time to
find someone else who does enjoy it, who’s better at it,
who’s faster at it, and who can help us kind of streamline
and content creation so that Bev and I can be focusing our energy
on some higher level stuff. Speaking of a higher level, I am so excited that I am
bringing back one on one coaching. I love working with women in this one
on one capacity. It’s so impactful, so transformative, so much fun to really get to know my
clients and understand what they’re trying to achieve and help them achieve them. Whether that’s project planning or
accountability or strategy that I can help them with or mindset blocks,
we can overcome. So many different ways we
can work together and tools
to improve your life and help you get to where you’re
trying to go with your business. But I’m so excited to be working
with women in this capacity again, so if you want to learn
more about coaching and what
my options are for how we can work together, be sure to go to MeganMinns.com/coaching
so that you can learn more and see what next steps are in case you’re
interested in working together. But part of this has been that actually
for the past few months I’ve been going through a certification program.
And I’m not done with it yet. I’m not certified yet, but I am going
through the Yes Supply Coaching Method, her certification,
the Yes Supply certification and training, and it does include actually
five certifications and
I’ll be sure to include a link beneath this podcast in case you
want to learn more if you’re trying to be a coach as well.
I would highly recommend this. The certification I’ve been blown away
by Reese from Yes Supply in the community that is in this program.
These, it’s amazing, but there are five certifications that
I will be getting and the first one is a life and success coaching. Second one is NLP practitioners, so that is neuro linguistic programming,
which is very exciting. There’s also EF,T time techniques and
hypnotherapy and hypnotherapy is not what you think it is. You don’t actually go
into a trance or anything, but you know, I’m just still digging into this. This is a very thorough certification
program and I actually won’t get certified until I go to the live event
in September in Toronto, but I can’t wait. It’s going to be so much fun. So that’s something that’s been
going on behind the scenes. I’m digging into her bonus
that’s a coaching course as well, so I’ve been doing that for the past few
months and I’m excited to really lean into coaching and my business,
working with people in this capacity, helping really transform
my clients’ lives, and then to continue to learn as
well about all of these different certifications and different tools and
techniques that I can loop into our work together with clients. So that is a big part of the business
that’s shifting and it’s a brand new offering for definitely for this year
and in a new way than I’ve ever done coaching before. There are a few
different ways we can work together there, at this time, at least if you’re
listening to this farther in the future, you’ll just need to go to the
page to see what all is available. But at this time there’s going to be
the opportunity to work with me in a one off session or breakthrough session
where we just do one session together. And then there’s going to be a
chance to work with me ongoing. I do have very limited spots for clients
because I can’t just fill up my whole calendar with with client calls and I
really want to make sure that the clients I’m working with,
I can give my fullest attention. So I won’t be working with the
highest volume of people right now. So this sounds like something
you’re interested in, I would encourage you to go ahead and
look at that sooner rather than later so that you don’t miss a chance at working
together when the time is right for you. But that is a big thing going on
behind the scenes for me right now. So those are some of the bigger
changes that have been going on. Switching to being fully self
employed, again, hiring a team, starting coaching, and there’s so much more to come in
2019 I feel so excited about this year. I feel like my perspective
is so different. I know I touched on the
mindset thing earlier, but really I’m approaching my business
in my life in a way that I never have before. I’ve always really relied on strategy
and project plans and a certain order to do things and this is the right way
to do them and being really strict and intense about it and that usually lead
to a lot of work and a lot of planning and a lot of down in the dirt and kind
of things feeling hard and I didn’t know better at the time and y’all that’s
served me like I have built –I’m not starting from scratch as I leave my full
time job, I’m not starting from zero. I have, I do have a successful business and I’m
coming back to and so those strategies can get you somewhere. Not saying
they don’t work, they have served me. But as I try to step into this
higher level version of myself, the life I really want,
the business I really want, I’m having to let go of thinking that way. I still love project planning and
action steps and don’t get me wrong, I do those, those are important,
but I think the shift comes from, I used to think about
things like, okay, I know, let’s say I have an idea
for doing a mini course, and I know that a mini course
will help bring in some revenue. So old Megan would say,
okay, I’m going to do a mini course now
what do I want it to be about? It could be this, it could
be that. Okay, okay, yeah, that’s do that and then I would execute
that and create this mini course and it would make money. So again, it works. But what I have found and what I have
learned over the past year or longer is that that approach will only get you
so far and it’s honestly not very fun. Like that is not a fun way
to operate your business. You start to come at it from like a making
money angle. It gets really stressful. There becomes this big pressure. Creating
things feels really hard and resistant, and I’m really trying to avoid putting
myself in that spot in this new version of my life and my business. Instead of identifying a way to make money
and then finding out what I wanted it to be about, I am doing the
exact opposite. So I may have, I may want to do a mini course. I may say, that’s a good
idea, I should do that. Or like I wanna I wanna do a webinar.
I know I want to do that. But instead of sitting
there and forcing it, I am awaiting until inspiration strikes, until I have an idea that I want to
take action on until I know, ah yes, that needs to be out there and then I can
pick the medium in which I deliver it. And that has been a radical change for me. So instead of sitting there and saying, how do I make money in
reverse engineering that plan, I’m going at it a different direction and
y’all, I’m in the nitty gritty of that. I’m,
I’m in the down and dirty of it. I am doing it right now and I’m not
trying to act like it’s super comfortable. Every single day I’m having to fight my
instincts to reverse engineer a project plan and reverse engineer
our revenue goal. And again, I’m not even sure that I’ll never do that.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t do that. There is a strategy behind
that, that’s smart. But I, I think there has to be a blend to it
for me at least to be happy to enjoy the work I’m creating, to enjoy how I’m working with people
and honestly to make selling easy. Have you ever created something free or
paid and some –believed in it so much and like how easy was that to sell
or promote? So friggin easy, right? So that is the kind of energy I’m
trying to intentionally put out there. So I don’t want to create something or
launch something or start doing something unless there’s that energy behind it
because I know it’s going to have a huge ripple effect on not only the
actual sales that come from it, but how I feel doing it, the,
the results people have from it. And all of that stuff. And that even
applies to this podcast. You know, when I sat down to record, I’ve actually recorded four episodes
tonight and when I sat down to do this, I’ll be honest,
I had four other topics planned. I didn’t have any of these planned. And the reality was as I sat here and I
fell into my old habits for a minute and I started trying to like force myself
to outline a different topic and I was like, you know what? I’m like 0%
inspired to talk about that right now. That episode’s going to fall flat.
If I just try to do it, it’ll, I’m sure someone will,
it will help someone, but it’s going to fall flat and it’s not
going to feel fun and I’m going to feel drained and I want to have fun. I want
to enjoy this life and this business. And so I sat there and I realized,
what do I feel inspired to talk about? What does feel easy for me to share?
What do I have a lot to say about? And I went with that and look, here
I am. I have no outline for this. I’m just updating you guys like you’re my
friends, which I view you as my friend. And this is one of my favorite episodes
I’ve ever recorded and I don’t know, it just has been such a testament to
me that when I come from this place of inspiration and fun and joy and pleasure, I get more out of ito Other
people get more out of it, and it has this broader ripple effect.
It means more, it matters more, it’s more fun, there’s less
intensity, there’s less
stress, there’s less pressure, there’s less anxiety. I also feel like
less attached to the outcome of this. I don’t really care how many
downloads this episode gets. I mean they are great and I appreciate
every single listen and download, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not attached to the outcome
because the art of creating it was so pleasurable and I just trust that the
right people are gonna listen to it, and then it’s out of my hands.
And that has in it a radical different, like even from two months ago, even
from when I started the first episode, like all of this has
been so different for me. I think that plays into like another
big thing that’s been going on. I’ve been really exploring
mindset and a more spiritual side. Some woo woo,
if you call it woo woo, and the Law of Attraction and affirmations
and journaling and visualization and totally holding a crystal right now we
record this and wearing jewelry that means more to me than just looks cute. It has like significance behind it and
it’s just been a whole new game for me. I never considered myself an intuitive
person and to me a lot of woo woo mindset stuff,
Law of Attraction, a lot of that you hear people talk about
it being connected with intuition and I think once you dig into it,
you realize it is. So I never before that
thought it was intuitive, so it never felt like something
that was really open to me. Never felt like something I could even
participate in. It felt way too out there. I had a lot of preconceived
notions about what it meant, but gradually over 2019 I’ve just been
open to it through for a few different reasons, but I’ve become open to it and whether
or not you’re woo woo or spiritual or religious or conservative or none of it
like I do think and believe that mindset is so, so important and I knew that,
I’ve known that for years, but again, I was coming at it from more of
like a logical strategic standpoint. Now I’m coming at it from more of a true
emotional and like life altering way. Where I can see and feel the instant
impact when my mindset is improved and I’m actually, I don’t, I don’t know
exactly when episodes are going live, so I don’t know if it will
be before or after this, but I am going to have an episode about
my affirmations and what affirmations I’m using, how I’m using them
and if that’s out already,
be sure to listen to it. If not, stay tuned it, it’ll
be out in a few weeks. But I, I just, I want you guys to know that
someday I’ll be sharing more about, I’m still in the curiosity,
the exploratory, the learning side of things, and I’m loving it and I’m just letting
myself play. It feels like a hobby. It feels like a wonderful thing that I
can play in a new world to explore in. And it has really positive impacts on
my actual life and business and mindset and how I spend my time and how I feel.
So definitely more to come, but it’s been a really,
really incredible thing. So I started listening to the book Law
of Attraction and that really opened up my mind in a lot of ways.
I haven’t actually even
finished it yet, but that was, that was crazy.
And I just started talking to people. Some of my business friends are more
woo woo or into that kind of stuff, and I just started asking questions and
following my curiosity and it’s been a really fun journey.
So I’ll share more about that. Obviously I feel like I don’t
have perfect lessons learned yet, but mindset has been huge for me this
year so far this past month or two in particular, it has changed everything about the way
I look at the world and my business and my time and my job and I’m excited to
share more but I wanted to give you a little, give you guys a little taste
of that. And on a more personal not,. I actually didn’t even think I was going
to share this when I sat down to record this episode,
but I just feel like I can’t not share it. My husband and I had a miscarriage
in January of this year, and that has been a journey that’s an
affected everything for me this year. We were at our eight week appointment
and found out there was no heartbeat and the baby stopped growing. And we had to
go through that experience of, you know, a miscarriage and what that, not only the physical trauma of like
what that’s like as a woman having to go through that with your body. But
as a couple, it really changed, didn’t change our relationship but it
challenged it and it stretched it and grew it. And it brought us
together in a lot of ways to, neither of us had ever really
been through something like that. And it changed.
I mean, it totally changed the whole trajectory
for 2019 I thought we would be having a baby in the summer and you know, I’m definitely not pregnant right now
and drinking my red wine, and you know, it’s, it’s changed things for us and I don’t
really know exactly what the point is, but I just felt like it’s worth noting
when we’re talking about life and business updates and what’s going on with
me is that it’s definitely impacted me and it’s been something,
um, I really struggled with for a long time
and I don’t want to pretend to be healed. I’m actually looking for a therapist
right now to help me really continue to heal. I have a tendency to repress things and
bury them and then they like explode in emotions and I know that’s not healthy
and I want to be on the journey, I want to continue to be on the
journey to recovery and you know, with future family planning, having gone through that as totally
rocked my world with just grief. And I’m afraid to go through that again
and you know, it’s been a whole thing. So that that was something we went
through. My husband I went through, we’re still, we’re still going through
it. We’re still figuring it out. We’re still figuring out
what we want to do next, if we’re ready to dig right in to try
and get pregnant again or if we want to take a break and how we want to go forward
as a family and with our goals. So, um, but it, it did change things. And
honestly, even with, you know, my career, my business, my job, you know, when we went through that is
kind of just an unexpected, I don’t want to say reality check, but
I’ve said this before, my friend Bev, who’s a mother who works with me. Um, but B,ev always talks
about as a mom, you know, there’s trade offs and
it’s not about balance, but it’s about intentional trade offs
of what is worth that time exchange. And I think when we were pregnant,
I started to realize what do, what trade offs do I want to make,
what trade offs are worth it for me? And then I felt a little trapped and,
and that’s not just specific to my job, but in a lot of different ways. It felt
like it was too late to get healthy. It felt like it was too late to do x-y-z.
I felt like I, people were telling me, people that love me
were telling me that I, I couldn’t be self employed while
I’m pregnant because that would be irresponsible. I couldn’t leave a secure job and be self
employed because that’s irresponsible when you’re pregnant and
that was not a good feeling. I disagree with that and maybe
I’ll talk more about that later. Love those people. Like it’s
totally fine, we’re great, but it was just not the perspective
I expected and it wasn’t how I felt. And then when we went
through the miscarriage, I think it was just like an opportunity
for me to make changes and to stop waiting and to take charge of my
life and to take advantage of it. And I think that kind of spurred on some
of the radical change I’ve been doing this quarter that when I started 2019 I
wasn’t sure. I would be making. I didn’t, that wasn’t part of the plan. And going through this has changed me
and I actually have a whole blog post written about the miscarriage. I’ve almost shared about it so many
times I have audio clips where I’ve just processing what it was like and I, I want to be a part of the dialogue of
IX not exposing miscarriage but talking about it, making it not so full of stigma because
for me as a woman it felt like something I couldn’t talk about and,
publicly I, my friend’s been so wonderfully
supportive but sharing it with friends who didn’t even know we were
pregnant was so hard, so hard. And um, I felt like in those
moments where I was dealing with it, in the most, especially when you have all the questions
you find out you’re going to and you don’t know what to expect, I found the
most comfort from other women’s stories, whether it’s on social media or a blog
post or even like a forum post from 2002. Those were so helpful just to hear
other women going through the exact same thing I was. So I do want to be a part of that story
and this feels like a step in sharing it and I hope to share more about
it and be more open about, about it all. But I don’t know, that’s
really changed 2019 for me and I, and obviously that happened before I
even started the podcast and it’s just something that I kind of
keep not talking about. So this is me talking about
it for the first time. Um, so that’s been a big thing
going on personally and yeah, I mean I didn’t really
intend to even go into that. So now I feel like that is not
how I want to end this episode. But I think I just want to circle back
around to some of the bigger lessons I’ve learned overall personal and,
and with business. It’s kind of going back to that mindset
thing of just really trying to step into this place where it’s not about hustle
and like filling every single slot on your calendar with something.
Instead, it’s about really focusing on being, being the person that
you want to be first. And then doing the actions
that follow up with it, and I don’t have that
perfectly figured out yet. I’m still definitely working on
that identity shift, but you know, I have changed my morning routine a
little bit to be more focused on the mindset, the mental,
emotional side of things. So instead of just getting out of bed and
like ticking things off my to do lists quickly, I make sure I have more luxurious time
in my morning to focus on the journaling, the visualizing, the mindset stuff that’s really going
to help me be the person that I’m trying to be, and that’s how I’m going to
build the business I want to build. That’s how I’m going to
connect with my dream clients. That’s how I’m going to achieve those
things is not necessarily by sitting there and hustling and like doing the most.
It’s by doing less, but doing it from a
different place mentally. I don’t even know if that made sense,
but man, it’s been a really interesting 2019
so far. There’s been so many changes. I am so excited for what’s to come.
Again, as of the time you’re listening to this,
I am a fully self employed. Again, you’re going to be seeing
more content coming from me, more, more pr –not promotions, but more offers,
more chances for me to work with you, for me to help you, for me
to teach you, to guide you, to collaborate with you, to connect
with you and have some really big, exciting plans for this year
you guys. Um, I can’t wait. I can’t wait to see how it actually
unfolds as I go into this year too, because I really am saying open to it, evolving in a way I don’t even expect
and I’m just focusing on taking the next step at a time and seeing where it goes.
So that’s what’s been going on with me. Again, if you want to work with
me one on one in any capacity, definitely go to MeganMinns.com/coaching
to find out more about that and sign up to work with me and learn more. But I can’t wait.
I so appreciate you listening. You supporting every time you
guys send a Dm to me on Instagram, share this podcast on your stories, leave
a comment on my posts, send me an email, and all the other incredible ways you
guys support me and engage with me and connect with me, really fill me up in a way
that I can’t even verbalize. I genuinely love you guys and love you
and appreciate you and want to know you and engage with you and help you.
So I would love to hear from you. I would love to hear what you
thought about this episode. I don’t think I’ll do big
updates like this all the time, but this felt like a pretty
good opportunity to share
some big changes going on, some more about what’s been happening
with me behind the scenes and going from there. So I hope you guys have a wonderful rest
of your day and I can’t wait to hear from you and I will see you in the next
episode. Thank you for listening to
the Productive Life Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would
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and more. Be sure to go to MeganMinns.com
I’ll see you in the next episode.